Debunking “Guruji’s Grace” – Part 1
Shortly after the inception of this blog, WhistleBlower wrote a post entitled Original Sin in AOL & the final Salvation in which he discusses one of the most powerful techniques which Art of Living employs to ensare its followers. This technique goes by various names throughout both this blog and AoL, but here I will refer to it simply as “Guruji’s Grace”.
In his original post WhistleBlower defines “Original Sin” in Art of Living as follows:
What is this Original Sin? Simply put, it is attributing the student’s healing, spiritual experience or insight, gained through some spiritual practice or knowledge, to the guru, in this case Ravi Shankar. This happens in AOL, right from the word go & continues throughout & it gets hammered into conscious & subconscious of the students by so many subtle & not-so-subtle ways & means.
As an interesting sidenote, if you re-read the article you will note that WhistleBlower predicted “By the end of this year [2010] Sri Sri has to think of more effective damage control measures than his two current counter-blogs or sending threatening legal letters to those whom he suspects are the authors of artoflivingfree blog”. Lo and behold, barely had the New Year started when Google and Automattic (owners of WordPress) were served with subpoena’s demanding that they reveal the identities of a number of key contributors to these blogs.
Another interesting thing mentioned in WhistleBlower’s post is that those who unwittingly fall victim to Guruji’s Grace become completely blind to all the wrong-doings in the organization and will in fact exonerate the guru from these happenings. Since that post was written, we have seen so many Art of Living devotees on this blog who even though they have admitted they are aware of some of the wrong-doings going on in Art of Living, find it almost impossible to believe that SSRS is responsible for them. So intense is the power of this mechanism for enslaving people.
In this post, I’d like to cite a number of examples which I feel go a long way towards debunking “Guruji’s Grace” and verifying what WhistleBlower wrote about it previously. In a future post I will go into detail into some of the psychological techniques which Art of Living employs to make people believe in Guruji’s Grace.
Long Kriya
Anyone who attends a Basic Course and asks if they can take the tape or a copy home with them is inevitably told that the tape won’t work for them, that it will just be silent or contain static, or some variation of what we now know is a complete lie told to participants who want to take the tape away. This lie is part of bigger lie surrounding the Kriya tape, and that is that the tape will only work when a teacher is present to conduct the session.
We know this is a lie because many of us have tried listening to the Kriya tape with no teacher present and can verify that the effects are exactly the same. But Art of Living followers are led to believe that those who undergo TTC become channels for “Guruji’s Grace” to flow through, and that it is Guruji’s Grace which is responsible for any positive effects received during Kriya. As a sidenote, shouldn’t Guruji’s Grace also be responsible for any negative effects received during Kriya???
So, if no teacher is present, how can the Kriya tape possibly produce the same effects as if a teacher was present? How does “Guruji’s Grace” make its way to the participant? Furthermore, what about the short kriya? This is done in the privacy of one’s own home, usually by oneself. Again, how does Guruji’s Grace come to the home practitioner? If they happen to live with a teacher then I can understand it, but for the majority who don’t, there doesn’t seem to be any way.
From this we can conclude that the effects of practicing Kriya, both positive and negative, have nothing whatsoever to do with Guruji’s Grace, but are entirely due to the technique. The lies told are simply to enslave people to the tape, the organization and ultimately to SSRS.
Reviving the dead, but unable to prevent accidents?
There have been various rumours that SSRS had once brought back someone from the dead. The following was posted on esatsang last year and provides a good example of this:
Date: 7 February 2011 22:03
Subject: Guruji’s GraceWhen we are all in bliss still trying to come out of 30th Jan 11. I wish to share the news as how Guruji’s grace has flown and we have seen a Miracle during Naadhavaibhavam. While I am writing this I am getting goose pimple all thru my body.
One of our Pillars of Nanganallur Centre, Mr K M Subramanian, (Facilitator-Nanganallur) affectionately called as KMS mama was brought back from the jaws of death. We all have been working in the Musicians Volunteers team for nearly 1 month at his residence. He works like an 18 year old boy with full of enthusiasm.He has been an inspiring figure for all of us.
on 16th Jan Sunday KMS had some pain in his Left shoulder and left hand. But he ignored it considering the work load. More over he had similar muscular pain few months back. He got treated and came out of that. Probably that has made him to think that it may be due to physical strain. He used some balm and other methods to reduce the pain,
The next day (17th) morning as usual he was on Nadhavaibhavam duty though the pain did not subside. He went to handover the donor pass to one of the devotees place .Came back and did his regular Pooja at home and after having Brunch he went to the nearby Sri Chakra Hospital for check up. He took his wife Smt Gomathy along with him in his own Scooter. Smt Meenakshi another Seva warrior of Nanganallur Centre helped him to get the emergency appointment with the doctor. ECG was taken and doctor did not see anything unusual . But within a few minutes, in the hospital itself KMS mama collapsed.He had a massive Heart attack. Immediately he was taken to the ICU and started the treatment. Few minutes later the Doctor (Dr.Satyanarayana) called up Mrs Meenakshi to tell her that Mr Subramaniam is no more. But she said a person who does Guruji’s work tirelessly cannot leave and requested the doctor to do everything possible to bring him back .The doctors have put in their best efforts to revive his heart pumping again. This is when Guruji’s grace was seen by everybody. The doctors have started giving us a ray of hope. Every hour passed by he has started responding to medicines.Though his heart started functioning,the doctors had put him on Ventilator and termed his condition as critical . Only after 24 hours anything can be decided they said. By this time the news reached all the volunteers and we all surrendered to Guruji and prayed for his speedy recovery. Guruji answered our prayers. Guruji says YOU DO MY WORK AND I DO YOURS. Even today the doctor says its a Miracle that he survived. Thank You Guruji Its all because of you.
It was a set back but with KMS Mama’s Inspiration and Guruji’s Grace ,Tambaram Zone had done fairly a good Job during Naadhavaibhavam.
The Cruel fact is that KMS Mama lost his both the sons few years back. We the Volunteers in Nanganallur are all his sons and daughters. When we say that our eyes become wet. Its true we are one world Family. Dear KMS Mama and Gomathy Mami. You are not alone we are there with you.
JAI GURU DEV.
N.MANIKANDAN
The following story, taken from artoflivinglifestories website also bears mentioning here:
Sanja Kordić, Croatia
International Art Of Living Teacher, CroatiaI am an international full time teacher from Croatia. In April last year, I had a terrible car accident in Bulgaria. I was injured very much. Art of Living people from Bulgaria found the best hospital for me, came every day to see me in numbers that was problem for the staff in the hospital, bringing me everything what I needed.
From the very beginning of this story, from the accident, I had a very strong awareness of Guruji’s presence all around me. He phoned me twice in the hospital and helped me so much. Also at least more than 10 young Art of Living Bulgarians gave their blood for my operation. A girl from Art of Living Macedonia, came daily from Macedonia to take care of me, and after 15 days came Snježana. Art of Living full time volunteer from Croatia and continued to take daily care until the end of my stay there. I’ve got so many cards, SMSes, from satsang groups all over Europe.
Love Beyond Anything I Knew
After coming home, I was completely immobile and I live alone. So, Art of Living Croatians had a list where they put their names to cover me 24 hours a day. I had full care from them and it wasn’t just bringing me a tea, remember, I was immobile, I couldn’t do anything for myself, even toilet or washing. Still I wonder how they could do this. It was love beyond anything I knew. They gave me so much love, care, attention, service, that for all doctors, my recovering was a miracle. After one year, I started to walk. Ayurvedic doctor recommended 28 massages, 14 Marmas and 14 Abhyangas, you know how expensive that is. Then one couple, both Art of Living teachers from Slovenia took me to their house and during 3 weeks they gave me massages and special Ayurvedic treatments just for seva. After that, I could walk without crutches.The security and feeling of being protected
I was twice in Art of Living International Center Bangalore to see Guruji. Every time I’ve got the best accommodation and nobody ever asked me for any money. Now, everybody treats me as a miracle. I’m walking, I still have some problems with my body, but Art of Living family saved my soul. From the very beginning of this story,from the accident, I had a very strong awareness of Guruji’s presence all around me. He phoned me twice in the hospital, but I don’t mean just that. It was just a feeling of being protected and security that I’ll have place in his life whatever happened. However this ends, he will give me the meaning of life, include me in spreading of the knowledge. My body was suffering, I was in pain, but my soul was very relaxed. This is the secret of my recovering.For a year and a half, I was not able to work, but they, the Art of Living Foundation pays me regularly. God bless them all, my gratefulness is unlimited.
I fell so very grateful to Guruji. It is just a feeling of being protected and the security that I’ll have place in his life whatever happens.
One thing that pains me when reading Sanja’s account is that although she acknowledges that so many people gave of their time to look after her and to be with her when she needed it the most, she is strongly hinting that it is because they are Art of Living people, and she gives the impression that ultimately it is all because of SSRS and his purported grace that these people helped her. Otherwise why would this story even have appeared on the Art of Living Life Stories blog? This again is just another example of how the mechanism of Guruji’s Grace is employed to make people feel indebtedness to SSRS by attributing all the good things in their life to him.
Now, going back to the first story above, those who were present clearly believed that Guruji’s Grace was responsible for bringing back the gentleman mentioned from the dead. Likewise, so too did those who saw fit to publish the account in esatsang. And this is what they would rather believe than any other explanation, for instance that it was the doctor’s which brought him back to life or that they might have been wrong in the first place. No, they would much rather believe what they have been conditioned to believe from their time in Art of Living, that those who work hard for Guruji are somehow protected by his grace, and that nothing short of a miracle took place.
Ok, but let’s look at the second account.
Sanja tells us that she was in a terrible road accident, that she couldn’t walk at all, and that “From the very beginning […] I had a very strong awareness of Guruji’s presence all around me. ” Indeed she also tells us “It was just a feeling of being protected and security that I’ll have place in his life whatever happened. ”
Although she doesn’t refer to it by the same name, Sanja here is beyond any doubt talkiing about what we are referring to as Guruji’s Grace here. So the first question is, when she says “From the very beginning […]”, when exactly does “the beginning” refer to? This is absolutely crucial here. At what point did Sanja begin to feel Guruji’s Grace? If she has been with Art of Living for over 10 years and has obviously worked tirelessly given that she is a full time teacher, then surely she must have felt this grace ongoing throughout her experience? And so, surely then, she would have felt the grace prior to the accident happening? If this is indeed the case and that Guruji’s Grace is so omnipresent and powerful, how on earth was it that Sanja wasn’t protected by Guruji’s Grace when she had the accident? In other words, why was Sanja involved in a car accident at all?
On the one hand, we have a story of Guruji’s Grace being able to revive someone from the clutches of death, whereas on the other hand this same grace was not able to save poor Sanja from being involved in a terrible car accident.
If Guruji’s Grace were real, then surely Sanja would have been saved from this terrible accident which left her incapacitated for over a year? But it didn’t. Which begs the question, outside of devotees’ heads, is there really such a thing as Guruji’s Grace?
You decide.
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Beyond The Art of Living 
And here’s another glorious instance of the master’s beautiful gift to the devotee, the SKY, coming to the rescue of mountaineer Tine Mena of Arunachal Pradesh as she attempted to scale Mount Everest.
http://www.artofliving.org/sudarshan-kriya-powers-tines-mount-everest-climb
The link says that Mena used the SKY to overcome breathing difficulties she had on the mountainside.
When I try to imagine Mena, stranded on the ice ridges, all clad in her high altitude gear including a closed circuit oxygen tank for breathing, and going 20-40-40, I feel I have underestimated the desperateness of AOL to push the SKY as a cure all for everything, including mountain sickness.
Please suggest that AOL gave her their charity money to say this.
“I was helped a lot on that front by an Art of Living workshop I attended in Itanagar just before I embarked for Mt Everest. As a goodwill gesture, I was invited to the workshop by the local chapter of The Art of Living. Whatever I learnt came in handy. The breathing techniques, the Sudarshan Kriya in particular, really helped me when I was gasping for breath! Meditation kept me really relaxed and energized at the same time,” she adds.
Pastor: your comments have a real bad taste, worse than than the dead meat blocks served in your church…
@Harshal
Now Harshalji if I hadn’t posted that link would you have known that SKY can get you to the peak of the highest mountain in the world apart from getting you to the peak of your consciousness i.e the experience of “oneness” as promised by advaita vedanta and HHSSRS??
See how merciful your guru is to you harshal. Now since you have reached the peak of consciousness with the SKY maybe you can try scaling Mt. Everest now. You’d be happy to note that wearing high altitude gear with all the other climbing apparatus and the fact that you can do in under the open sky while scaling a peak, is apparently no impediment to doing the SKY,
And maybe in the next post by AOL on SKY experiences we might hear that Ms. Mena has also scaled the peak of her consciousness and rejected duality which we know is an Abrahamic dogma.
And what’s this thing about my posts having a real bad taste?? Weren’t you here only for the entertainment value of this blog??
@Harshal
” Pastor: your comments have a real bad taste, worse than than the dead meat blocks served in your church…”
Whats this harshalji ?? You went around tasting “dead meat blocks” served in churches ?? LOL
Fool, don’t you know it’s only because of Guruji’s grace you yourself are accident free and are able to ask ridiculous questions on this blog? Now go pray to Ravi or face the jaws of death yourself. Hmm… or was that Nithyananda? I get confused.
Ah: looks like the pastor is not sparing Isha foundation as well!
http://guruphiliac.lefora.com/members/stupidseeker/
for those who do not know the biblical agenda of the pastor can read this- you M I has kicked his A£$
http://www.freedombulwark.net/voices/323
@Harshal
How many “pastors” do you know who have done this much spiritual shopping with Hindu gurus. LOL But even so I did pay good money to both HHSSRS and Jaggi vasudev to do very many of their courses. When I wasn’t getting any spiritual satisfaction with HHSSRS, I tried out jaggi and his Isha. And found that he teaches exactly the same things, the same kriyas and same meditations. And then I found out that Jaggi was a former disciple of Rishi Prabhakar who like HHSSRS was a disciple of MMY and a close associate of Werner Erhard of the EST fame. Both HHSSRS and JV, describe “oneness” as their experiences of enlightenment and both “cognised” the teachings and kriyas by virtue of their “innate understanding”. And that explained it all.
I sometimes wonder that if Adi Shankaracharya and Patanjali hadn’t codified their teachings on Advaita Vedanta and Yoga in scripture i.e in black and white, so many centuries ago, then would we have seen the likes of Vivekananda and HHSSRS and Jaggi Vasudev all of whom wielded the experience of “oneness” as their batons of spiritual authority and propagated “personal experience” over scripture.
Anyways I’ve posted quite a bit on guruphiliac.lefora.com. I do hope that you follow my posts there and also share your views there as you do here. There will be no more impediment to your posting in that forum than in this forum.
And as for “You am I” kicking my ass, well maybe he did maybe he didn’t, I’d leave that to the individual readers to decide. But if he and the others of his ilk would have loved their fellow Hindus as much as they hate the Christians and Muslims, then probably india might have been a different place with a different history.
To speak further of jaggi vasudev, let me tell you that he is currently building a massive Shiva Temple of 500000 sq ft. called the Aadhi Yogi Alayam. He is soliciting donation at 50 USD/sq ft. He won’t see whether it’s a christian or hindu who is doing the donation. But the more important fact is that this massive complex is being built in the velliangiri biosphere.
Now I request you to find out what the word biosphere means and what impact the construction and maintenance of an artificial structure of 5 lakh sq ft might mean for the biosphere. If I were a hindu, the question I’d ask is, with hindus such as jaggi vasudev, who would need the christians and Muslims to do damage to it.
@Harshal
And before I forget pls. note that both HHSSRS and JV denied their masters. HHSSRS never publicly credited MMY to be his Guru and JV also never accepted Rishi Prabhakar as his past mentor. But MMY publicly declared Brahmananda Saraswati to be his guru while rishi prabhakar publicly acknowledge MMY as his mentor.
So now i want to ask you ?? Does the “oneness” experience keep on decreasing with each successive generation of gurus ?? If that’s true then might not the future gurus of AOL i.e dinesh ghodke and bawa paint HHSSRS as a charlatan sometime in the future.
Guruji is like a superstar… even when he gets old and lands a heart attack or something… he would look into the mirror and miracle would happen… doctors, science and medicines have nothing to do with miracles… they were around Guruji coz., that too was a miracle…
but what would happen when other “gurus” fall sick when they get old…
i have a solution… get all these gurus under one single roof and induce synchronized heart attacks to all these gurus… give them a choice – either look at yourself in a mirror or some other “guru” – say nithyananda in this case… and see who brings about a miracle… that would settle the issue of who really is the “miracle man”.
@Anonymous
How about this additional test.
Take 10 gurus randomly sampled from the guru population and starve them for ten days. Then lock all of them in a room and throw exactly one piece of bread in their midst. Oh! what fun it would be to watch them display their “oneness” to each other
Aah, as I’d expected this thread is turning out to be a Hindu, Muslim, Christian debate. For those of you who believe in reincarnation (I repeat – those who believe), don’t you think that in some birth you would have been a Hindu, a muslim, a christian and perhaps all the religions. Is there any point in debating religions. The teachings of all religions have been the same, it’s the humans that have over the years distorted it to suit their vested interests.
Does a child have a religion when he/she is born? It’s us adults and the society which changes them to think so. We are part of the same consciousness and are all one. No amount of Kriya (be it Sudarshan or any other yoga form) can bring about any change in an individual’s spiritual aspirations unless he/she changes his character.
All the best to Harshal, but I do not think any amount of Guru Grace (if at all it is real) can bring him any benefit on the spiritual path unless he let goes of his ego, anger, hatred, bad choice of words etc. Unfortunately, AOL never teaches these basic principles and even if it does, I’ve rarely seen it evident in his followers.
GOD is within us. First change yourself. Become humble, compassionate and love everything and everyone. You will automatically be guided to a true Guru.
@Anonymous
Why should all be one for harmony to prevail ?? Can’t we be different and yet celebrate the differences ??
Stupidseeker
“Can’t we be different and yet celebrate the differences ??”
Absolutely stupidseeker. Bang on. The moment we are able to realize this simple fact of life our perception towards life starts changing. Harmony will automatically be a byproduct of this Love, unknowingly. This however can never happen by superficially doing yogas and pranayams and being the devil from inside.
Harshal do you get the point? Continue with SK if you feel good about it. It’s your personal decision, as is it for people not wanting to do it. However for any candidate on the spiritual path, cleanliness of thoughts and actions are the basic requirements.
I know what your reaction would be to this but if for a moment if you think about what I have written perhaps, and I sincerely hope so, it would have sown seeds for a changed Harshal of future. All the best mate. I am not writing this sarcastically, I really mean it.
@Harshal
This is in response to your accusing me of having a “biblical agenda”.
I once read a story put out by AOL that Guruji was travelling somewhere in America by car and then the group came across a church. Guruji asked the car to be stopped and started walking in the direction of the church and upon reaching the door found the pastor waiting for him. The pastor said he had been “waiting” for Guruji to show up for years and the story also went on to mention that the pastor complained that he had been persecuted by the local church authorities because he believed in reincarnation. This story is only one of the many doing the rounds, wherein Guruji has been seen by his christian devotees as Christ and Visalakhshi, his mother, as mother Mary.
So now I wish to ask you in turn, what’s with the AOL agenda of showing HHSSRS in a biblical light ??? For someone whose enlightenment experience is one of advaita why this fiddling around with a dvaita or dualist doctrine such as Christianity which has an out and out dualist scripture such as the Bible ??
Let me ask you again, for a follower of an advaita guru, how much “oneness” have you experienced with your fellow bloggers on this blog ? Are you usually in “oneness”, with your duality coming out into the open on this blog, Or do you partake of the luxury and naturalness of duality, safe in the knowledge that your guru has asked you to take it for granted that duality is really false and non dualism is true even though one and not the other is your actual, true to the senses, experience ?
And what has your Guru told you about behaving with people who haven’t yet had the experience of “oneness” like me i.e those who are still in the mode of duality ?? Has he told you to brand them “pastors” and “bible thumpers” ??
As a dualist myself, I see yourself as being separate from me. I won’t pretend anything else regarding that. And since I see you as a human separate from me, I will accord to you all rights that I would accord upon myself and would impose no responsibilities upon you that I wouldn’t upon myself. This is called the called the Golden rule and the person who invented it, whoever he/she might’ve been sure wouldn’t have called himself/herself enlightened. So now can you tell me whats the Golden rule with non dualists such as yourself ??
Pastor: You talk like a parrot. What is this duality non-duality nonsense? Only an idiot will go on classifying people as ‘dualist myself’ an ‘non-dualist yourself’. I don’t consider myself non-dualist or dualist. I might be a tri-alist, i believe in myself , you and the entertainment provided by jokers like you. I meditate not because i want a oneness experience (which someone else has had before) , I do it because it makes me more efficient at work and other places and generally keeps me happy and am grateful to those who have taught it to me.
You say ‘When I wasn’t getting any spiritual satisfaction” I went to someone else. What are you looking for Pastor? What kind of satisfaction? You want oneness experience? LOL.
You go to different teachers and then start negative blogging about them? Instead of seeing good things in people you can see only the negatives? The thing which Isha is building will help so many people to meditate? Will it not? If you really want to shout, shout against pepsi cola who are draining away all the water from our villages. If you really want to blog , blog against your church pastor. They are the ones who are looting people from thousands of years by building up guilt complexes.
@Harshal
Maybe I was a parrot in my past life .Check this post out and you might say I’m the God of parrots now. BTW How much do they charge now in AOL for a past life regression session ??What Did they tell you what you were in your past life then ??
To go on, Why am I not surprised that you have trashed duality and non duality, the jewels in the crown of five thousand years of hindu philosophy, as being nonsense ??
I can fully well now appreciate that you are amongst those Hindus for whom Hinduism lies in bowing down to a master of their choice and feeling “blissed out” because of them. In short your “personal experience” decides whom you want to worship and how you worship. Thus if tomorrow I wore a fake beard and clad myself in saffron robes and gave you an experience you liked, I could then count on you to defend me from “negative bloggers”. That’s the magic of “personal experience”.
Adi Shankaraachrya, like your Guru had the “oneness” experience as his enlightenment i.e dissolution of one’s ego into the superego. But one of his disciples asked him, that why should someone trust his personal experience, since personal experience could also be multiform. Shankara understood this point and then declared the scriptural authority of the vedas to be supreme. He went further and wrote treatises like the vivekachudamani in which he codified his “oneness experience” in black and white.
Your guru also had the “oneness” experience but unlike Shankaracharya has yet to codify any of his teachings. Infact your guru holds so closely to his teaching,s unlike the shankaracharya that he threatened to sue a blog that showed his teachings to the whole world. Now shankara never objected to his teachings being codified or put on public display. Why is your guru so allergic to having his teachings put on public scrutiny ??What does he have to hide ?? All that we have in the name of codification is a compendium of the miracles effected by HHSSRS in a book called “Guru of joy” by ravi shankar fan boy fracois gautier. Not one book or treatise exists where actual AOL teachings are set out in black and white.
Your “oneness” guru in a book called “Wisdom for the new millenium” said “Prem ki gali ati sankri, jaan mein do na samaye”. Or, the path of love is so narrow that two cannot fit into it. Wonderful eh! So if Harshal is walking the path of love with ravi shankar, the path of love being so narrow, that one has to disappear. So no prizes for guessing who disappeared.
Millions upon millions walk the path of love with ravi shankar and disappear. And ravi shankar is quite happy with this disappearance, since this disappearance translates into plenty of free seva, plenty of donation and lots of lobbying by the “disappeared ones” for ravi shankar to give seminars and attend conferences all over the globe. And when some of the disappeared ones make blogs like this one to regain their identity back, it’s deeply resented by “disappeared” ones like you. No wonder your guru is so hell bent on promoting “Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam” or the “one world family” in which the whole world “disappears” into him. LLLOOOOOLLLL. And ravi shankar has really no problem if you feel separation from the rest of the world. It’s of paramount importance to him and his agenda that you feel “oneness” with him. Witness how AOLites behave on this blog and with each other in real life, and their absolute deferential attitude with the guru. So those who “disappeared” into ravi shankar appear here to satisfy their dualistic urges. Tell the truth Harshal, has anyone in AOL given you so much attention that the people here have given you here ?? LOOL
But a dualist, one who acknowledges separation, like me would say, “Prem ki gali, itni chaudi jaan mein sab sama jaye.” Or, the path of love is so wide that everyone can be accomodated. No one need lose their individual identity. Which is what this blog is exactly is.Individuals who are rediscovering their individuality and their individual identity. And thats worse than AIDS in AOL.
@Harshal,
I told you didn’t I ?? Jaggi Vasudev’s mentor was Rishi Prabhakar, who like ravi Shankar was a disciple of MMY ?? Why the eff****** do I have to keep repeating myself to you. His environmental concern is as much as ravi shankar who went ahead and built his soudhamini plot on agricultural land and blocked the natural outflow of the pre existing water pond as a bonus.
And yes i was looking for the “oneness” experience that both these two promnised. And I still believe in it. Only, if i want to get it, I”ll now merely sit down and do sadhana on Adi Shankaracharya or Abhinavagupta or Mandana. rather that these two who will take my money and “disappear” me in return.
I see this going around in the AOL circles in various social media forums and AOL Devotees patting each other’s backs…for having reached that state.
Once Krishna and Arjuna were going together along the open road. Seeing a bird in the sky, Krishna asked Arjuna, “Is that a dove?” He replied, “Yes, it is a dove.” He asked Arjuna, “Is it an eagle?” Arjuna replied promptly, “Yes, it is an eagle.” “No, Arjuna, it looks like a crow to Me. Is it not a crow?” asked Krishna. Arjuna replied, “I am sorry, it is a crow beyond doubt.” Krishna laughed and chided him for his agreeing to whatever suggestion was given. But Arjuna said, “For me, your words are far more weighty than the evidence of my eyes; you can make it a crow, a dove or an eagle and when you say it is a crow, it must be one.” Implicit faith is the secret of spiritual success..
From a faith perspective this means that their surrender has been a 100%. If it has really been a 100% surrender (even if it is to Ravi) then these individuals have really made it. But if their intellect is even active 0.0001%, then they are in for a lot of pain at some stage.
Anyway the way of Grace is as follows.
1. If good things happen its because of God (Ravi)
2. If not so good things happen its the individual’s karma. And God (Ravi) knowing it all can only feel compassion in his heart. And he will tell you…I am there for you. But the pain….you have to suffer this…there is no other way.
This being the case……how the hell does it matter if you are Ravi devotee or Not ? How is it any different ?
@Anonymous,
“This being the case……how the hell does it matter if you are Ravi devotee or Not ? How is it any different ?”
Pls. check out the following links that experimentally confirm your doubts to a significant extent.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/kumar%C3%A9-a-true-story-about-a-false-prophet
@Anonymous,
This has been posted before. Scroll down to the end of the page and check out who is with Kumare.
stupidseeker permalink
January 16, 2012 6:13 am
@Anonymous,
This has been posted before. Scroll down to the end of the page and check out who is with Kumare.
Sorry find the link here:
http://www.kumare.org/about/
Good question. That’s for you to chew on!
What shines through Guruji is something so profoundly real and wonderful. It transcends all religions and conceptual systems. When you experience it directly it puts everything else in perspective. The Grace of the Divine is quite real. What others say is fine. I can’t judge it. But what happened/happens to me and my wife is quite extraordinary and very, very real. I’m not into mood-making or pretending. Grace is real and true and transcends all karmas. Never doubt it.
@Quaff the Koolaid Lads!
But ravi ravi could have done none of it, if he hadn’t declared his enlightenment ???? Right!
Stupidseeker,
I don’t think I understand your comment/question. Guruji didn’t declare anything as some sort of a causal trigger for my experiences. I’ve never heard Guruji say, “I am Enlightened therefore……..”. Apparently many Indian AOL teachers do this though which I would argue is ridiculous and ultimately damaging thing to say.
Hi Quaff the Koolaid Lads! – What do you mean by ‘direct experience’? Would you please elaborate about what you felt around your Guruji? What really happens or does not happen to you in the presence of your Guru? Thanks.
Anony,
I’d love to talk about my experiences of Grace, but I don’t really see this forum as a good place to do that!
@Quaff the Koolaid Lads!
You say your experience is very very real and yet shy away from talking about it, on a forum thats completely anonymous, as if speaking about it here, would somehow defile it. But thats really Ok. It’s your prerogative where you want to or donot want to speak about your experience. Maybe your experiences may have graced some promotional advertisements of AOL ??
Next you affirm, that there was nothing that Ravi shankar said that triggered your “experience”. Thus logically speaking, there was something that your eyes saw that triggered your “experience”. Your eyes see a lot of things everyday, but it was the sight of ravi shankar, that triggered your experience.This sensation of being overwhelmed can only happen if you consider the object of your reverent gaze to be on a spiritual plane higher than yourself. Thus your “experience” itself confirms ravi shankar’s “enlightenment”, in the sense that you considered ravi shankar to be more evolved spiritually than you.
If someone else has a similar experience with ravi shankarand declares ravi shankar to be enlightened, then it would be unfair on your part to call them “ridiculous”, as you said in your above post.
Now let me ask you, are all the experiences of people in AOL uniform or are they multiform ?? Because if they are multiform then AOL is a place only for personal experiences and personalised truths.If that is so, then AOL lies when it says that it’s courses and teachings are “scientific” and moreover what then would be the definition of “truth” in AOL.
OTOH if the experiences are uniform then why do AOL teachers and people go around saying that each one will have or has had their own unique experience ??
At the most basic, all I’m really asking you, where and how do we validate your experience or in what do we ground your experience, when AOL hasn’t laid out anywhere, what exactly is it that we are supposed to experience.
“how do we validate your experience ” “what exactly is it that we are supposed to experience”- amazing BS!
All this guy wants is some ‘oneness’ experience. Since he could not get it anywhere all these putrefied materials are coming out of his head! His abrahamic upbringing has programmed him to expect something out of every action. It is just another version of ‘if you praise lord he will be happy” – translated “if you have a guru you will get oneness or some supernatural experience”.
Since he cant get it, he denies everyone else’s experience. When the mountaineer said SK helped her, he denies it. He will continue deny everyone else’s experience coz he doesn’t have it and thus continue his misery. He simply doesn’t understand that his hankering for an ‘experience’ is the biggest obstacle.
@Harshal,
And what’s Harshal maharaj’s own reaction to the negative experiences of AOL that so many bloggers have had and chose to post them here.How about you practicising what you are preaching to me. According to harshal maharaj while the positive experiences are perfectly reasonable, the negative ones didn’t really happen.They were all a figment of imagination of a person who had an ego and refused to surrender like harshal did.
Harshal maharaj is so programmed to disappearing that he can’t bear the thought of someone asserting their identities. He is a frickin nobody at AOL just like other AOLites who have disappeared into the enlightened one, which is why he keeps popping in here so that atleast somewhere he can assert his identity, even if it is negative attention he gets. As they say, a drowning man will clutch at straws. Admit it harshal, you can’t do without this blog.
And fyi people with abrahamic upbringings don’t go looking for experiences. They rely on scripture as their means of worship.
First you trashed as nonsense the hindu philosophies of duality and non duality and now you say that abrahamic’s like me go looking for “experiences”. You really are an AOLite harshal.
Let me now paste a line from the link in my first post:
““I was helped a lot on that front by an Art of Living workshop I attended in Itanagar just before I embarked for Mt Everest. As a goodwill gesture, I was invited to the workshop by the local chapter of The Art of Living. Whatever I learnt came in handy. The breathing techniques, the Sudarshan Kriya in particular, really helped me when I was gasping for breath! Meditation kept me really relaxed and energized at the same time,” she adds.'”
Read the first line brother. She learnt the SKY just before she embarked on the climb. The possibility now arises that she may have been invited in the first place precisely because she was going to attempt the scaling.
Next mountain climbing is not simply a sport. It’s a way of life. Question is, would she have been on the AOL website if her attempt had failed, SKY or no SKY on the mountainside???LLLLOOOLLLL
@Harshal,
” His abrahamic upbringing has programmed him to expect something out of every action. ”
Now that you admit that SKY can also fail when it comes to experiences, can we expect AOL to put this disclaimer alongside the numerous benefits that they list out when they advertise the SKY ????LLOOLL. You really are an AOLite harshal and as yet that’s the worst abuse I could give anyone.
Simple. You have a documented medical condition. It causes you great pain. You communicate through a letter to Guruji about this condition and ask if it can be healed. You awaken in the middle of the night with a powerful experience of being with Guruji. The condition is instantly gone. Your doctor tells you the condition is no longer present. It is absolutely amazing.
@ Quaff the Koolaid Lads!
If true then certainly a compelling reason to be a devout follower of Guruji. But someone very close to me did not have this good fortune and had to suffer a great deal and take a great deal of medication before stabilising. This despite being an unquestioning devotee of HHSSRS.
Has you guru laid out anywhere, what are the conditions that are to be met before his grace will heal the disease ?? Clearly devotion isn’t one, since many devout have not been healed ?? Can you enlighten me on this ??
Don’t you think you have a moral responsibility to answer this question before you advise people to quaff the koolaid, because as they say, one man’s medicine is anothers poison.
@Quaff,
Strangely, having spent some years in very close proximity to SSRS, knowing him personally, I never once witnessed or heard of any such “miracle”, except a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend type thing. In fact, his closest teachers were very ill, some of them requiring extensive medical care, some of them dying at his ashram at young ages of heart attacks. He made claims that he had saved this or that person from sure death, but there was no way to know if that was true or false. I really think these “spontaneous” cures are either exaggerated, or imagined, or simply because they believed they would be healed. I would never attribute it to SSRS or any other person. If the person having this miracle is you, I’d take a long look at the whole incident.
@Quaff,
I believe, just as Anonymous above has alluded to, that you experienced this healing simply because of your faith in SSRS and not because he actually has any mystical healing powers.
If SSRS really had any healing powers, surely he would use them to go around the world and treat the sick and otherwise infirm? But you see, this isn’t happening at all. So either he is being extremely selfish with his wondrous gift, in which case he really isn’t the beneficent saint that he and his followers are portraying himself to be, or he simply does not have any powers.
And wouldn’t he and Art of Living use his miraculous powers to reinforce the view that SSRS is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, a man who himself is reported to have the power to heal people miraculously? Ever wondered why they aren’t doing this?
@Quaff the Koolaid Lads!
What are the chances that HHSSRS was not Jim Jones in his past life. ???ROFLMAO
@Harshal,
Tine Mena was the first NE woman to have scaled everest. This news made it to the national papers also.
http://www.hindu.com/2011/05/12/stories/2011051267692200.htm
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-11/south-asia/29532048_1_mt-everest-himalayan-mountaineering-institute-arunachal-pradesh
The last link carries the picture that appears in the AOL link. And in none of the links does she mention any sudarshan or any kriya or any such energization because of the meditation.
Furthermore in the AOL link she said that she was “invited” by the local AOL chapter. If you read the news reports you will know that Mena was unemployed at the time of beginning her ascent. It’s a significant coincidence that someone who is unemployed and who was just about to embark upon scaling everest was invited by the local AOL chapter to learn the SKY. If you ask me, it’s typical AOL behaviour.
Furthermore hindu yogic gurus themselves assert that yogic kriyas have to be practised for atleast 40 days or one mandala before they get integrated into the physiology of the practioneer. Again I’m hardly surprised AOL has been waived this cumbersome condition.
@All,
The second link in the post above is from the Times of india (TOI), which is owned by Indu Jain who is an ardent devotee of HHSSRS. TOI hasn’t yet spared an opportunity to showcase AOL, be it reportage on the shooting in the ashram or a piece by sadyojatha bewailing the lack of respect for swamis nowadays or the coverage of the World culture festival.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-06-10/india/28318082_1_swami-innocence-victim
That Tine Mena’s article in TOI does not mention her utilizing the SKY for her climb anywhere at all, as does the AOL link in my first post, is extremely uncharacteristic of TOI.
Or more generally: How can one validate any so-called religious / spiritual experience?
Which leads us back to the $64,000 question which has already been asked on several occasions on things blog: “How can you tell if someone is genuinely enlightened?”
If anyone can answer either of these questions satisfactorily, I will personally give you $64,000.
The Game is afoot 🙂
@ The Dcotor,
I thought 64000 USD would be a little too cheap as remuneration for providing a framework to validate experience in AOL. How about the Nobel prize with its 1 Million USD cash prize ??
The Doctor,
In general established religion relies upon scripture to ground and validate experience. Take for instance dualist doctrines such as the Bible and Koran. If a believing christian or muslim experiences “oneness” or unity with God, the relevant scripture tells them that they are wrong and that they must correct themselves.
Similarly so, Adi Shankaracharya, Abhinavagupta and Mandana were monists who believed in Brahman being the only one with no second. The deluded soul must by practice of yoga achieve its dissolution into this Brahman. Even as they stressed the role of direct experience, they grounded the “oneness” experience in the authority of the Vedas and the Upanishads. Thus if a monist starts experiencing duality, he must know that the experience is false since the Upanishads being supreme, say that it is “oneness” that is the actual, “real” experience and even if he experienced “oneness” he must use the Vedas and Upanishads and not Shankara’s word alone to validate it.
Madhavacharya on the other hand, was a dualist who emphasized the separation of god from creation. He meticulously laid out his philosophy of Tattvavada or dvaita in his numerous works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_of_Madhvacharya
Incidentally Madhavacharya referred to Shankaracharya as an illusionist and his monism as “mayavada” or the doctrine of illusion. Thus a follower of madhavacharya’s duality could correct himself based on Madhavacharya’s scripture and get the right experience that led to his emancipation.
These new age gurus, holding their teachings in secrecy and hating the written word, except when it comes to using the ancient mantras during the Navratri pujas (sankalpa =$$$), allow their devotees to have any kind of experience as long as they experience spiritual “oneness” with the grand master himself. This spiritual “oneness” is the only criteria necessary for these gurus since it translates into material oneness also, wherein the time, energy, resources, intelligence and ego of the devotee also becomes one with the master. Thus while the devotee is in the bliss of dissolution with the superego, even as he may be feeling complete separation from those walking the same path, the master is laughing all the way to the bank. And as the ranks of the devotees swell with each dissolved ego bringing in more egos to dissolve, so does the superego swell in size. And many of these dissolved egos belong to those who are well placed in society such as industrialists, policy makers and politicos. They help in expanding the size of the superego right upto the portals of economic and political offices of society.
Moreover these gurus did one better than the philosophers of the past. Shankara and Madhavacharya never referred to their philosophies as “scientific”. They referred to it as Dharma or religion that led to final emancipation. But the new age Gurus have turned this dharma into science which has hurt both dharma and science. Thus many spiritualists of today think that spirituality and the resultant personal experience is scientific, even in the utter absence of any verifiable, empirical observations about matter and mind during these experiences, and think science is nothing but a manifestation of dharma. This turning of dharma into science insults the sacrifice of the spiritual seekers of the past who left life and death and even the next meal to chance on the path of seeking the truth. The modern day pilferers of traditional spiritual knowledge it seems are leaving nothing to chance.
What then happens when an ego/egos break out of the superego??The superego retaliates in the form of Harshal, subpoenas and counter blogs and anguished outpourings such as those from the Sad Swami and newspaper articles decrying the sad state of spirituality and the bearers of the same i.e the swamis, in India. These are amongst the more benign ways of retaliating I believe. The superego, I strongly believe, can employ much more punitive methods of rectification as and when the opportunity to do so, will present itself.
So is Ravi Shankar ever going to provide a framework or a basis to ground and validate the experiences of his devotees?? That’s a question that’s worth a Nobel peace prize or two. LOL
@stupidseeker: What a joker you are. I log into this site after a few days and I see – for one post of mine you have already written 10 different essays! You quote Upanishads, vedas Madhavacharya and what not- while you simply miss the simple things I point out. Like for example- I didn’t discard the philosophies of duality and non-duality blah blah.I am just ignorant about them and I don’t care. However, I am pretty sure that someone who goes on classifying people is ‘non-duality believer’ and ‘duality believer’ on an anonymous forum is simply stupid and making a fool out of himself. Similarly I don’t deny any good or bad experiences people have had. I just debate the reasons behind them and the sheer lack of logic behind those entertains me. Like for example- you did not get a ‘oneness’ experience… so AOL and ISHA are bad! Now where do they promise ‘oneness experience’ . I am yet to see any AOL or ISHA course which tells you that you will get enlightened and get oneness experience after attending this. Then there is another guy who offers money to prove enlightenment and thinks he is supercool! Height of idiosyncrasy.
Why so much writing ? You must have spent a considerable about of time and money from your life searching for some experience and now that you could not get anything out of it, you have this insatiable desire to make yourself heard. Hence you keep writing on different forums and respond to people like me who use this forums for pure entertainment. Seriously, why do you write so many essays to respond to me? “I am here for entertainment”- which part of that line do you not understand? But you can continue to do so, it will keep you busy and keep me entertained.
Harshal… are you really here for entertainment or are you unaware that your pseudo-spiritual-AOL-brain got blown away that you keep returning and choosing to BS on posts that further blows away your brains?
Wake up bro… please seek help at Vienna or something
and lastly, you need to find a hobby that uses some form of physical activity – go run or swim or kickbox or play a game you like twice a week… indulge in a pub once in a while… watch a movie… meet your family… coz., the moment when you realize that AOL is indeed the biggest spirituality business, it would be too late in life for you and mark my words – you WILL regret that you could have had FUN in life… alas, it will be too late Harshal, too late… dont get messed up with AOL and ruin your life
@Harshal
1) I knew you would be back. In AOL you are just another AOLite who has achieved “oneness” with the guru. But the ego is not so easily satisfied as your repeated presence here is showing. This blog is one of the few avenues left to you where you can come to assert your individuality with no strings attached. So welcome back. And because I respect your individuality, it is incumbent upon me to provide answers for your posts. And again because I respect your individuality, I do not make it incumbent upon you to read them. After all you aren’t the only one around here who knows the English language.
2) Now you add the word joker to describe me. So that would make me a bible thumping pastor who talks like a parrot and is a joker and an idiot also, as an added bonus. And all of this when you haven’t met me in real life. Your sadhana is truly deepening.
3) Even after years of being with AOL and Isha, I wasn’t feeling any oneness with the guru. Infact I felt more oneness with the course participants and the teacher, than with the guru. When I started asking why I wasn’t feeling oneness, they said there were mental blocks that I had, and need to rectify myself. I failed to rectify myself and was called a failed case since they don’t have much use for people who don’t have “oneness” with the guru. In the end I felt better with my individuality intact. How many people in AOL have made it to the upper echelons and have not claimed “oneness” with the guru. Bawa?? Dinesh?? The criterion at AOL and Isha is not just “oneness”, say, with your fellow course participants, but “oneness” with the Guru, since there is no one higher than the guru and consequently “oneness” with the guru is the highest kind of “oneness”. If my “oneness” with jaggi was going to aid in the desecration of the velliangiri’s, then I wanted no part of it. Infact Jaggi himself once said that India needed more toilets than temples because the urge to pee is greater than the urge to pray. Hope he builds enough toilets in his 500000 sq ft temple complex.
4) People classify themselves as dualists and non dualists. I merely respect that classification. Shankara called himself a monist and Madhavacharya called himself a dualist. Why should I disrespect that?? The Bible, Koran and Talmud are again Dualist doctrines and their followers claim separate identities from God. Why should I disrespect that?? If you call yourself an “AOLite” should I say that you are not?
5) AOL and Isha both offer the individual the personal experience of the guru….for a fee. The individual who is economically competent, then has to decide whether it is worth it to pursue the personal experience of the guru or not. Neither AOL nor Isha set much store by scripture and neither “master” has codified their teachings unlike Shankara or Kapila Muni or Madhavacharya amongst others.
6) The Hindu philosophies of Duality and non duality will be nonsense to you, as you mentioned in your earlier post, since your guru has never bothered to acknowledge the scriptural corpus of his Shankaracharya lineage, which he claimed for himself by virtue of him being a “reincarnation” of Brahmananda Saraswati, likely an unprecedented happening in over three thousand years of Vedanta, and you never cared to find out yourself since the SKY had already killed all your curiosity with the rush that hyperventilation is capable of giving. In short you took your “personal experience” as valid proof of your guru’s divinity. Won’t blame you alone for that though.
To quote you words:
“”Pastor: You talk like a parrot. What is this duality non-duality nonsense? Only an idiot will go on classifying people as ‘dualist myself’ an ‘non-dualist yourself’.””
7) And lastly Harshal, your God knowing guru once said that “God loves Fun”. It cuts both ways doesn’t it…for believers and unbelievers….or does it not?? LOL
@Harshal,
And oh yes, one last point, I’d missed earlier. You clearly saw the logic behind all the positive experiences and saw the sheer lack of logic behind the negative ones. And while you endlessly debated the logic behind all the negative ones, have you tried to test the logic behind your own positive experiences ?? And because you haven’t, you come up with terms such as physiological alkalosis and dismiss theories of duality and non duality as nonsense.
Your own guru has this to say about experiences:
“If all your experience can be explained logically, then you have missed something very important in life. – Sri Sri Ravi Shankar”
He forgot to add the word positive before the word experience in his statement above. But he can be forgiven for that . He is human after all.
@SS
“Shankara called himself a monist and Madhavacharya called himself a dualist”.
Show me one instance where Shankara said ‘I am a monist’ or Madhavacharya said ‘I am a dualist’.
They taught Advaita and Dvaita but they never went on classifying people -which only a idiot like you can do on an anonymous forum.
@Harsshal,
I’ll “show” you :
First check out Adi shankaracharya
Adi shankaracharya holds the chin mudra, wherein the index finger touches the first joint of the thumb to form a circle, signifying final dissolution and unity. But don’t take my word for it. Check it out on the internet.
Now check out Madhavacharya and read the accompanying text.
http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Madhva/madhvateachings.html
Now call them idiots who drew these masters. And BTW your guru has been photographed in only two possible ways. Either with his smile turned on, since that’s his bread and butter or in meditation probably thinking about future ventures. So do you propose a new philosophical class for him, Harshal ??
What part of this sentence do you not understand?
“Show me one instance where Shankara said ‘I am a monist’ or Madhavacharya said ‘I am a dualist”.
Don’t give me a link to a photograph and suggest what the photograph means. Give me an actual quote. Show me where they classify people as Advaitas and Dvaitas like you did.
@Harshal
Oh! And whats this we have here? A devout follower of a realized Hindu guru, asking an “idiotic Abrahamic, Bible thumping pastor” for scriptural references on the works of Hindu philosophers.
Anyways have you ever held your guru to the standard that you are holding my words to now?? Because if you and other AOLites had, then maybe that Soudhamini plot would never have been built on agricultural land. But knowing your Guru and some of his disciples, and also out of deference to your individuality, I wouldn’t make it incumbent on you to answer my question.
But now to answer your queries. This link here will lead you to some selected works of Shankaracharya translated into English by S. Venkataraman in 1921.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/wos/index.htm
This link will lead you to the chapter entitled “Direct Realisation” wherein “pratyaksha” is expounded as a means to liberation. If you go through the text, it would remind you of Ravi Shankar’s pravachans. But it also reminded me of Paramahansa Yogananda and Jaggi Vasudev’s description of enlightenment.LOL It’s hardly surprising that your Guru jumped into the Shankaracharya lineage by using one of the few means available to him i.e. claiming that he was a reincarnation of Brahmananda Saraswati.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/wos/wos06.htm
But of particular interest to you should be verses 20, 21, 23, 24, 43, 46, 53, 54. In these verses he dismisses dualists as being ignorant of the true nature of the self. In verse 29 he appears to be pulling the legs of the proponents of Shunyavada i.e the Buddhists. Seen as a whole, this chapter mostly is a polemical construct against the proponents of dvaita, since obviously Shankara couldn’t have known Madhva for obvious reasons.
To move to Madhavacharya works against Advaita, check the following link to the Vishnutatvanirnaya, translation in English:
http://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/vishnutatvanirnaya
The entire text is a counter to the philosophy of Advaita and the references of my interest were verse 98 and those that follow and then verses 141, 142 and those that follow, and then 363 – 368. Another text by Madhva is the Sadacaryasmrti:
http://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/sadacarasmrite-avn
In this text he lays down the distinction between Shri Hari i.e the supersoul and the individual soul. In verse 24 -26 he condemns those sinners who do not recognize this fundamental duality, to hell.
Now all this info has come to you for free. Shankara and Madhva also gave it for free.And this breed is becoming rarer and rarer.
@Harshal
BTW hope you also notice the scriptures held by the masters in the left hand resting on the thigh.
@ The Doc
Please release my comments with the links in them.
@doc
Please don’t release his links. Let him suffer in the ignominy of not being heard adequately for a while 😛
@Harshal,
So you see Harshal, by the mudra alone the masters “tell” the world what their perception of truth is. And the presence of scriptures in the left hand resting on the thigh, grounds the experience of the seeker when they are gone. Experience grounded in scripture. Which is why Shankara and Madhva live on centuries after their physical bodies turned to dust.
If you want your guru’s legacy to be cemented then get him the NPP asap. LOL Otherwise who knows what might be left of his legacy a century from now.
@Harshal,
And BTW speaking of legacies, Ravi shankar’s counterpart, Jaggi has constructed a “Dhyanalinga” which he says has all seven chakras locked into it. This linga he says can take the seeker to the ultimate if the seeker meditates in it’s vicinity. He also says that the consecration of the dhyanalinga was the “dream” of many yogis of the past, but only he, i.e Jaggi was able to do it and that too after three lifetimes.
But for something that was the dream of countless Siddhas and yogis there isn’t a siingle reference I could find in any Hindu text that referred to any such thing as a dhyanalinga. Moreover jaggi stated that it’s mentioned in the Rig Veda that only a grihastha could do the consecration of the dhyanalings. Thing is, in the Rig Veda there isn’t any mention of a linga let alone a dhyanalinga, what talk of a grihastha doing the consecration of the same. These guys should really leave the scriptures alone and concentrate on giving their devotees “experiences”.
@Quaff the Kool Aid: Just because you and your wife felt something, feel something, doesn’t make it true. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and experiences, but still, they could be delusion, like ‘experiencing’ that the earth is flat and the sun is going around the earth, when in fact our direct perception is completely wrong. I too felt alot around SSRS. I soon found out that it meant nothing. I kept going back, it was like a drug. Nothing permanent. Nothing complete. When I asked “how is this feeling I get around you any different from some drug repeated for pleasure?” he’d get very angry and dismiss the question out of hand. Not a patient fellow, I found. If you remove yourself from AOL and SSRS for a few months, stop the Kriya, stop going there or thinking about him, obsessing about him, you’ll find that your “grace” dries up. If it were really Grace, it wouldn’t require measely human attention would it? When I was weaker minded, and wanted to believe in something, I felt something I deemed “good” around SSRS. When I broke away, I regained strength, and got rid of the dependence upon him which he craves and needs to control people. Wake up.
Anon, you do what you need to do and I’ll do what I need to do. Talking about spiritual experiences with an atheist is a little silly because they assume, a priori, that no such experience exists and will simply dismiss what is said. Just as you know what is real or unreal for you, so do I know what is real and unreal for me. The spontaneous healing of a documented, painful medical condition is something quite real. Of course you can not accept this because it would undermine your decision to denigrate SSRS.
@ the pastor: While you revile in the arrogance of knowing these things, you dont seem to have innate understanding of all this. Look at the verse of Shankaracharya you quoted
“He who thinks “I am the body” remains, alas! in ignorance, as also he who thinks “this body is mine”, as if he were always looking at an earthen vessel belonging to him”
“I am indeed Brahman, without difference, without change, and of the nature of reality, knowledge and bliss. I am not, therefore, the body which is unreal.” This is what the wise call knowledge
Shankara completely destroys to concept of a seperate ‘I’. Now that he has done that, how can he classify people as ‘Dualists’ and ‘non-dualisits’ . According to him There is no such thing ‘I’ ‘you’ and ‘me’. There is just one. one ‘one’. There can be no separation.
Hence I am copy pasting my original question.
“Show me one instance where Shankara said ‘I am a monist’ or Madhavacharya said ‘I am a dualist”
I think it was a mistake that they gave it away for free. may be out of their compassion towards ignorant fools like you. But now, you use this knowledge and give your own interpretation.
I suggest that for now, for all practical purposes you stick to your “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain” , “You shall not murder”, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house” and other things which they teach you in your church.
@Harshal,
My my, Harshal maharaj’s scriptural thirst is finally awakened it seems. By a “bible thumping idiot pastor” of all people.LOL and you have judged my lack of “innate” understanding without even having known beforehand the existence of these passages and translations. And this when just a few posts back you dismissed it as nonsense and then said you didn’t care about them and then mockingly called yourself a “trialist”. How did you know it is arrogance on my part to be revealing these “things”? How do you know I haven’t had any gurus?? Do you think all gurus are like ravi Shankar?? LOL
At any rate did you notice the near perfect similarity between Shankara’s treatises and ravi Shankar’s pravachans on oneness.
Your query is as below:
“Shankara completely destroys to concept of a seperate ‘I’. Now that he has done that, how can he classify people as ‘Dualists’ and ‘non-dualisits’ . According to him There is no such thing ‘I’ ‘you’ and ‘me’. There is just one. one ‘one’. There can be no separation. “”
And my answer reference to which I had posted above can be seen below below:
“”Where there is duality by virtue of ignorance one sees all things as distinct from the self. When everything is seen as the self, then there is not even an atom other than the self.””
You merely state the obvious when you state that Shankara destroyed the concept of separation. He states reality to be “oneness” and all else to be illusions of the senses. But he does draw a line between those souls which have realized this and those which are still in duality. Read the above and decide for yourself. Unity is the reality which a dualist has yet to realize and an advaitin already has. He certainly does not deny the ignorance of the state of duality. Thus the classification between the realized and unrealized is drawn on the basis of the soul’s perception. He confers existential status upon ignorance (duality) even while stating the “reality” of “oneness”. If he hadn’t conferred existential status upon the ignorance of duality then where would your Guru have been??? LOL
And what did Shankara call himself?? He called himself that. Tat tvam Asi. Just what you were told to call yourself, when you go 20-40-40. And just what he says when he says “I am Brahman”.
Regarding the dvaita of Madhavacharya I have already given you enough references of his clearly classifying Advaita as ignorance as opposed to dvaita as the reality. But still check this out:
“” I offer adoration always to Narayana who is cognizable in all his uniqueness only through the right scriptures, who wholly transcends the Ksara Individual selves) and the aksara ( Lakshmi, his divine consort. His transcendence of both Lakshmi and the invidual selves implies a fortiori his ranscendence of inanimate nature) and who is flawless and abounds in all excellent attributes.””
Can there be a clearer reference to what Madhva “thinks” himself to be?? He bows down to Shri Hari, the supersoul, who transcends the individual selves. It is clear that Madhva is not Narayana. Thus he refers to himself as the individual self i.e the philosophy of dvaita.
The only reason I mentioned Shankara and Madhva who propounded two opposing philosophies was because both used the written word to validate religious experience, in complete contrast to ravi Shankar who holds tightly to his teachings, threatening legal action upon anyone who does. This was probably the “interpretation” that you found so galling. Else why would I come to this blog to comment upon Advaita or dvaita when numerous other such blogs exist with far better “logical” people than you?
Have you ever imposed such standards upon AOL as you have upon a particular “bible thumper” and this blog in general?? Will you ever do so?? Will they ever match up to it??Care/dare to carry out this experiment Harshal?? Ask ravi Shankar to reveal his teachings publicly and see how they react. LOL and don’t forget to post your observations here.
If Shankara and Madhva had not freely disseminated their teachings, a “mistake” as you say, then would you have had the twisted “pleasure” of calling someone “a bible thumper”? LOL Just to jog your memory I have reproduced a comment you left some time back.
And you won’t have to fear “bible thumpers” like me who won’t covet your house or your wife and won’t murder you. But you might want to fear those who feel “oneness” with you, since then your house, your wife, your property and your very life also might become one with them. LOL
pastor: talking with someone like you is like -a computer with 6GB RAM trying to communicate with an intel atom processor. Like an intel atom processor you simply cannot handle and process an information.Dont write too much.Again, Length of you content doesnt make up for the lack of quality in it.
” I am brahman” – ‘tat-vam-asi’ – is a state of being. Saying that ‘I am monist or a dualist’ is a state of separation.
He never says ‘”””I am a monist'””” =’I am a believer of non-duality’ .
He says “””””‘I am non-dual'”””””. Period.
No question of belief in duality or non-duality and no question of separating people based on it.
He draws a line between those souls which have realized this and those which are still in duality but hasn’t he implied that this distinction is illusionary because everything is just ‘one’.
Pastor: you state of mind reminds me of the verse in your book
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie”
@Harshal (aka the supercomputer)
“””He draws a line between those souls which have realized this and those which are still in duality but hasn’t he implied that this distinction is illusionary because everything is just ‘one’.”””
Exactly my point. He has emphasised that this distinction is real. And because he says it is real the world is divided into Ravi shankar and non ravi shankar.
My my my in the space of a few posts you have jumped from dismissing philosophies of duality and non duality as nonsense to a knowledgeable scholar whose RAM is all of 6GB. LLLLOOOOLLLLL
I can’t resist quoting the output from your hard disk of a brain:
“”” Pastor: You talk like a parrot. What is this duality non-duality nonsense? Only an idiot will go on classifying people as ‘dualist myself’ an ‘non-dualist yourself’. I don’t consider myself non-dualist or dualist. I might be a tri-alist, i believe in myself , you and the entertainment provided by jokers like you.”””
And then again you say you didn’t discard them as nonsense but don’t care about them:
“””Like for example- I didn’t discard the philosophies of duality and non-duality blah blah.I am just ignorant about them and I don’t care.”””
And then after having declared your ignorance regarding the philosophies you finally conclude that my “processor” is not upto it when it was me in the first place who showed the verses to you with links to verify on your own.
“””Pastor: talking with someone like you is like -a computer with 6GB RAM trying to communicate with an intel atom processor. Like an intel atom processor you simply cannot handle and process an information.Dont write too much.Again, Length of you content doesnt make up for the lack of quality in it.”””
You really are an AOLite harshal. And don’ tell me later, that it was me who inveigled you into reading the Bible by subterfuge.
Pastor: You can blah blah whatever, but the underlying point is Shankara never said “I am a monist” and Madhava never said “I am a dualist”. So again I suggest you stick to your beeblee whilst wondering why grace could not save your mother from having a stroke.
Speaking of Guruji’s grace, it didn’t come when my mother, a devotee of HHSSRS for nearly fifteen years came down with a massive cerebral stroke. My mother is finally back on her feet and her diabetes has more or less stabilised with the medication. At one time she was pretty confident that the SKY and the guru’s grace would be enough to live a long, healthy and prosperous life and her faith has been unshakable this far. Even dropping hints about possibilities of her guru being other than what he shows himself to be, is enough to put her into stress.
Another relative of mine was introduced to AOL by my mother. At that time he was struggling to make ends meet for his family. Then over the years after much struggle he built up a business which is right now pretty well to do. He has nearly fifty employees who work for him. And guess what, he attributes all his success to HHSSRS.
He has contributed generously to AOL and buys every kind of paraphernalia from AOL which he never uses. For instance he has a stack of CD’s of HHSSRS discourses from the floor to the roof which he never listens to, and never lends out to me either.He believes in ayurveda, debunks modern medicine,believes in enlightenment and freely uses modern technology but is not an innovator in the actual sense of the term. Being a good artist he has decorated his room with numerous portraits of his beloved guruji. But his sense of belonging with the guru does not extend to his employees however, whom he fleeces in the most ingenious ways.
Pastor: You can blah blah whatever, but the underlying point is Shankara never said “I am a monist” and Madhava never said “I am a dualist”. So again I suggest you stick to your beeblee whilst wondering why grace could not save your mother from having a stroke.
@Harshal,
The underlying point is Shankara affirmed that he was brahman while Madhva affirmed that he, an individual soul, was a worshipper of Shri narayana of the unique attributes and lord of all.
Thanks for your suggestion. I might consider reading the bible one of these days. But speaking of sticking I’m not sure i can stick to it as much as you stick to this blog. LOL And speaking of divine grace lets see what kind of death the death the divine graces ravi shankar with, which in any case will be passed of a Mahasamdhi. LOL
@Harshal,
Now wouldn’t it be a comedy harshal.?? The guru of joy, who brought smiles to million, who taught them “oneness” leaving behind a bunch of sobbing, grieving and distraught devotees upon his demise ???
Must see miracle – Shakti Drops
@Monkey
RS refers to these drops as some kind of immune strengthening preparation. How an immune stimulant can boost muscular strenght by mere topical appliaction is something the guru can reveal to the ignorant scientific community.
These drops called Shakti drops are a recently launched formulation by Sri Sri Aurveda for boosting the immune system …manufactured by Inwinex Pharmaceuticals (Chairperson Narayanan narasimhan, MD Arvind Varchaswi Narasimhan). Its a wonderful business model. Take money from devotees to set up your business and sell the product to themfor a price.
And its makes sense RS using this demonstration as a marketing trick to show the “shakti” in the drops since immune boosting can’t be physically demonstrated.
Funny label there…. I am a researcher in drug discovery, working in a pharma industry… I am sure the person who designed this label or suggested the tag line “helps in improving all round immunity” should be given a cover page article on Nature Immunology :-)… coz., the rest who do hardcore research to identify drugs or compounds or supplements that undergoes rigorous testing and now the magic potion of Sakthi Drops would supersede all of them… and they have no idea claiming that HPLC was used to test quality and purity… using HPLC for purity purposes happened somewhere 10-15 yrs back in drug industry…
Plus – the last thing someone want to test for a supplement is a potion that is not tested on animal models… which further questions the “claims” that the potion is an “immune booster”… overall, this is a formula that is based on traditional medicine recipes available elsewhere, conveniently copied and sold as “sakthi drops” to the retarded AOLite zombies…
They may even buy and drink poison if it is sold under AOL tag…
And here’s another such demonstration from 0 – 1.58
Hey, it looks like Sakthi drops – if it works could be used as a ‘viagra’ substitute LMAO
Er….did anybody notice…..the Shakti drops video isn’t playing anymore. A message comes on saying the video is now private.
Harshal – can you post another link to this video. I really wanted to see it.
Just a little bit more on those Shakti Immune Drops, that can cure aches and pains and build muscular strength and give “shakti” as Guruji demonstrated in the now “private” video.
The Shakti Immune Drops is priced as INR 100 or 2 USD for a quantity of 10 ml. This like most other products of Sri Sri Ayurveda will put it out of the reach of the average Indian.
And lastly none of the herbs listed in the label have any properties which can give muscular “shakti” as guruji so ably demonstrated in the now “private” vidoe above.
by making it as “private” video, it clearly shows that they are following this forum, are ashamed of what they did in the video and are also awakened to the fact that indeed it as a whole lot of “hot air” blowing from SSRS’s mouth that they sucked up
@ Monkey… its unbelievable that IITians are sucking up this BS
Are these really IITians ?? If they are, then this video makes me feel pretty ok I dond’t make it to IIT.
Look at that first guy who touched RS’s feet just like a reflex action at 1.05
Not too hard to figure out with a little googling:
http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/Unbend.html
All that portion probably does is relax the arm a little.
@Anonymous
And here I was thinking that if those drops were edible then the world’s food problems could be solved in a trice.
and here is the “Miracle Drops” story staring at Harshal’s face in all its “glory”… what does he have to say for this?
Here is a tweet from Swami Sadyojatha on Arvindvarchaswi’s twitter page:
“”@AOLSwamiji
Swami Sadyojathah
Do U want relief from body aches and pains?? Then, use the magical SHAKTI immune drops from the house of Sri Sri Ayurveda ! VERY EFFECTIVE
20 Dec via Twitter for BlackBerry® “””
An immune booster drop for body aches and pains and the SKY for mountain sickness. Sheesh, These guys are reeeeeeaaaaaally desperate.
This one was golden from our Banu Didi –
Bhanujgd Bhanu Narasimhan
#Formula1 If #SriSri is your formula, you have WON
30 Oct
Yeah, the first thing that F1 drivers need is SSRS’s formula to win the race
I’d like to refer readers to a book called “Light At The center : Context And Pretetxt Of Modern Mysticism”, by a monk called Agehananda Bharati. He was an Austrian anthropologist who spent over thirty years in India as an ordained celibate monk of the Dashanami sect.
During his time as monk he had many mystical experiences and putting them into context he advised that one should merely enjoy the experience and not try to confer existential status upon it. He further went on to say that knowledge can be the product of reason alone and not of these mystical experiences.
This book published in 1976 accurately predicted the rise of the “realized being” who would confer existential status upon spiritual experiences and flourish because of it.
An excerpt: Pls. remember the book was written in 1976 during the time MMY was a rage in the US and Europe.
http://www.autodidactproject.org/quote/bharati1.html
http://www.autodidactproject.org/my/blog-culture-0611.html#e01
And here’s a more recent review of the saame book by Ralph Dumain of the autodidact project
oh really! This old thing is what two teachers years ago showed SSRS: They were Americans and they showed him the old “technique” of holding something, like a vitamin, in your hand, then testing the strength of your arm, as in this idiotic video. If the vitamin (or other object, sometimes a new agey thing like a crystal) was good for you, your arm would become strong. If it was bad for you, it would be weak. He just changed it around a bit to reflect his product “shakti drops”. I cannot believe anyone is this stupid! I didn’t believe those foolish teachers at that time, and I certainly don’t believe that “shakti drops” do anything whatsoever, except, perhaps by mind suggestion. What a total scam. I second one of the poster’s feelings: If IITers are into this, then I’d never want to be an IIters, as it really reflects how suggestable and weak minded they are!
An IITian simply means that he/she has studied Physics, Math and Chemistry really well, and Physics, Math and Chemistry cannot give one real life lessons. If they would have given one life lessons, all great scientists would also be great businessmen earning billions but that is rarely so. Maybe Sir Henry Ford may have been a rich businessman and also an inventor, but this is more of an exception rather than the rule.
One of the guys testing the power of shakti drops is Harshal.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
“no matter whether they are rich or poor, healthy or sick, young or old, it is crucial to have an abiding sense of others’ dearness and their constant suffering.” the Dalai Lama
Although it may be difficult for people who have been fooled by Ravi Shankar and AOL, and hurt badly by them, I think the above quote serves anyone with a heart well: It gives us a chance to remember that even RS was once a baby in his mother’s arms, with all the promise of the world to her. She didn’t know what he’d grow up to be. Even the meanest teachers in AOL, with the most self-serving agendas were innocent children once. This helps me get past all the ugliness they all handed me when I left. They are all really suffering, or they wouldn’t be so confused, so defensive, so greedy, so many sad things. Feel pity for the lot of them, while still telling the truth about them. Maybe they will one day give up their charade and do some practices and actually attain a kind and large-hearted state that they all seem to be missing out on. Pray for that.