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How Can You Recognize a True Guru?

July 19, 2011

From a recent comment left by @You am I:

To understand Advaita Vedanta there are many texts like vivekachudamani, atma vidya, avdhoota gita etc etc ..

But AshtaVakra Gita stands out as the one which shows the guru-shishya dissolution in action.Janaka the shishya ,becoming one with Guru and attaining the silence where there’s nothing left to say.

I am curious to learn from you as to why would AOL teach you ashtavakra gita if they didn;t want to convey this central message of the text?

This is a very good question, and I can only give you my best guess at an answer based on a number of observations I have made. I will say outright I am no expert on Hinduism and as such feel free to correct me on any points on which I have erred:

1) The previous thread has reaffirmed for me something which I have suspected for some time, that Hinduism is one of the most complex if not the most complex of all of the worlds religions.

2) The teachings of Hinduism are contained within a large body of scriptures written over several thousand years which includes the Vedas, Upanishads and Gita to name but a few.

3) The scriptures are written in Sanskrit, and they are also greatly open to interpretation.

So far so good, these observations raise a very important question, and that is, how on earth does one go about learning all the tenets of Hinduism? Surely it must take years of study, including the learning of sanskrit, before one can reach a point where they can become “proficient” in Hinduism? Most people in today’s society cannot possible take years out of their lives to to dedicate to the study of these scriptures, so that leads us to the next observation:

4) One or more individuals can spend the required time to study the scriptures, and then impart this knowledge to those wishing to learn it. These individuals “become” Gurus, and those wishing to learn from them become their Disciples. I quoted “become” for a reason, and the following questions elaborate on this further:

  1. How does one actually become a Guru?
    My limited understanding is that somehow a Guru is “self-realized”, “God-realized”, “enlightened”, but I am not really sure what any of these terms actually mean, since they aren’t something which I have any direct experience of. Is there some kind of process, or call it a path if you will, that one can follow in order to become a Guru? I am vaguely aware that there is some kind of Guru-Disciple succession or lineage whereby knowledge is transmitted orally from Guru to Disciple, but I am unaware of how a Disciple eventually, if at all, becomes a Guru.
  2. How does one recongnize a true Guru?
    Any individual can give themselves the title of “Guru”, display various signs that one would associate with a Guru (such as wearing a white robe, growing long hair and a having a beard), he can through existing disciples spread rumours that he has divine powers (siddhis), and he can claim to have some knowledge of ancient scriptures. But all these things are surely external signs, and can very easily be faked, so how can we really tell whether that person is truly a Guru (self-realized, enlightened) or not? I have to date been unable to find anything in any textbook or website which can give me the answer to this, but if anyone can provide one it would help me and a great many people here tremendously knowing this.

Now, applying everything I have written above to Art of Living, I want to make the following observations:

  • I would postulate that most if not all who come to Art of Living are not experts on Hinduism, and so rely on SSRS to guide them. As discussed already in fact, many are completely unaware at the outset that it is even a Hindu organization, or at the very least that its teachings stem from Hinduism
  • Most are led to believe from the outset that SSRS is self-realized/enlightened simply because he has given himself the title of “Guru” (as well as the honorifics “Sri Sri” and “His Holiness”), he wears white robes, has grown long hair, and has a beard, he encourages his teachers and other diciples to spread “Guru stories” which make people believe that he has supernatural powers (siddhis) such as being able to control the weather, and he has at least some knowledge of ancient scriptures
  • SSRS has presented a number of commentaries on ancient texts including Ashtavakra Gita, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, Bhakti Sutras and Bhagavad Gita
  • Since I have postulated that most if not all followers aren’t experts on any of these texts already before they come to AoL, their faith in SSRS will be so strong by the time they watch these commentaries that they will believe he is being completely faithful to the originals. Any who do happen to already be experts may not necessarily take the time to watch any of them. Interestingly enough, it is only at much later stages of involvement that most people are encouraged to watch Ashtavakra Gita at all, and it is highly coveted by teachers. Followers are also discouraged from watching it by themselves in their houses, and instead are encouraged to watch it together in groups and discuss what they believed the saw afterwards. This may also add another layer of interpretation to it.
  • Since SSRS knows that people look to him as an authority on these scriptures, they will believe anything he tells them. Whilst he can remain as faithful as he can to most of the content in any given scripture, he is giving his interpretation of them, and as such this allows him to make any subtle modifications he deems fit. Especially to anything which may expose him or his organization.
  • Disciples are unaware of any deviations in the commentaries from the originals, and so accept everything SSRS tells them. If they have watched these in groups as encouraged, then there will be those in the group who may sway the interpretation in any way they deem fit.

We have already shown across this blog many ways in which AoL differs in its teachings from Hinduism, so what I have given above is a very plausible argument. I can also say for sure I’ve listened to various commentaries by SSRS on Bhagavad Gita and Yoga Sutras and they differ greatly from a number of other commentaries I have also read.

So to answer your original question, AoL’s teaching of Ashtavakra Gita may not be 100% faithful to the original, and it may leave out anything which may expose them such as what you have mentioned.

This is of course just a hypothesis, and is open for discussion.

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140 Comments
  1. anonymous permalink
    July 19, 2011 2:28 pm

    Anyone who wants some personal accounts of what it was like for them to be in Art of Living and to know Ravi Shankar (as opposed to the very nice philosophical arguments being made here these days by very intelligent people) should go to the right hand side of this page to the ‘archives’ section, and start reading through September 2010 onwards for more AOL background info.

    • Harshal permalink
      July 19, 2011 2:41 pm

      nice…so much hatred for AOL!

  2. Harshal permalink
    July 19, 2011 2:37 pm

    such an idiot this person is. There is no such thing as ‘original knowledge’ or ‘absolute knowledge’ . All knowledge keeps ‘evolving’ and ‘changing’ according to the needs of time and space. Or else why would there be four different Gita’s?

    The logical fallacy of this idiot is that if a commentary is different, it is deliberately different so that it can be used to manipulate people.

    if you don’t know about Hinduism why are you writing essays on it?

    • anonymous permalink
      July 20, 2011 12:40 pm

      Nice, so much hatred for anyone not Harshal.

  3. Jr. permalink
    July 19, 2011 2:52 pm

    You’re really losing it, aren’t you Harshal? Writing essays and responses where you sound like you are screaming and crying. The sad part is, you accuse this blog of so many things you do yourself. It’s incredible how much irony shows in your posts.

    It takes real balls to question one’s spiritual path and to leave it despite fear. It’s easy to stay in a comfy cult that claims to take care of you. You are clearly confused and angry, and we wish you well on your way to recovering from AOL.

  4. Anoop permalink
    July 19, 2011 3:04 pm

    The blog has greatly deviated … Now this is a blog on Hinduism ?

  5. You am I permalink
    July 19, 2011 3:20 pm

    would share whatever little i know on the subject, the knowledgeable one’s would pardon and refine.

    I would restrict my post to all those practices (strictly Hinduism and not AOL ) that may be appropriate for our times.

    The first question is “is there a path?” the answer is yes and no!

    In Hinduism, it is recognized that not all souls are at the same level of spirituality.some people just want to do away with stress, some people want to be healthy, and few rare ones yearn for self-realization.

    Thus Hinduism devised various practices depending on the current spiritual level of the various souls.It must be mentioned that Hinduism does not fool the practitioners at the lower levels by hiding the ultimate reality from them ..hence each endeavor is named a YOGA ( union, joining with the ultimate reality – the final goal)…like hatha yoga , raja yoga, karma yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga etc.

    Only jnana yoga (the path of knowledge) is called the pathless path [not because there is no path , but because there’s no single path that assures you self-realization – it can take several births and a a freak combination of paths or just an apple dropping on your head a la Newton !)

    with that settled, lets see what one must expect and what kind of a guru is required

    1. Hatha Yoga : most popular these days – keeps you fit (asanas- physical exercises) and teaches you mindfulness(pranayama – breathing exercises to calm the mind) [ the shatkriyas etc are not taught these days]

    How to identify a Hatha Yoga Guru?

    a) S/He must be able trace his/her lineage to Natha sampradya (or nowadays certified by some govt yoga institution- ask for the certificates )

    b) Must be able to demonstrate the practice – even if s/he is 90 years old !

    c) Must tell you upfront that hatha yoga alone cannot grant you self-realization. Feeling of wellbeing and mindfulness , the chakras etc. all are experiences in duality .He must point to you that Raja yoga is the next step after one has perfected hatha yoga ONLY WHEN ASKED.

    2.Raja Yoga : The end point of Hatha Yoga is the starting point of raja yoga.here you start working with the mind and it’s modifications.you can read about iit in detail at http://www.swamij.com .

    Guru for Raja Yoga ?

    a) More than a Guru , you first need to visit a psychiatrist in our times before venturing into this mind game.If you have a personality disorder, chances are it will get worse.Many Raja Yoga ashrams demand a health certificate before teaching you the techniques of Raja Yoga

    b) and then of course a Guru is required, again he must be able to trace his lineage

    c) since Raja yoga is all about the mind , don;t drop your mind in the very beginning. put as many doubts infront of the guru and find out if his answers satisfy you or not. DONT PROCEED if you are not satisfied[ after all a raja yogi is established in a state where his chitta -pure intellect is unaffected by modifications of mind- s/he must be able to remove the doubts of the aspirant’s wavy mind – right? ]

    3. jnana yoga (the path of knowledge) – self realization through self inquiry – [who am i ? what am i? who i am not? here and now etc etc]

    This is the ultimate pathless path.Aware road accidents survivors get this self-realization for free! for the rest of us , before taking this path – one must seriously ask:

    i) is this world worth leaving?
    ii)is my individuality my problem?
    iii)am i looking for eternal happiness?

    if your answers is no to any of these questions, please don’t take this path at all.You’ll only get disillusioned and disheartened midway

    does this require a GURU ?

    some schools say it does(traditional advaitins) , others insist it does not (neo advaitins)

    signs of a jnani GURU ? difficult to establish because the jnani does not change in behavior and mannerisms as much for the outside world. and that’s why it difficult separate the wheat from the chaff

    so what should we do?

    a) All Upanishads on advaita are available online.Google and study on your own
    b) be aware when you meet with an accident [ stupid! just joking!]
    b) Note all your deepest doubts in a diary and pose these to the so called “guru” who promises to emancipate you
    c) wait for your next life – seriously ! – it;s said in the shastras that the Guru would find the disciple and not the other way round. So stop chasing gurus before the age of 60

    hope this helps

  6. stupidseeker permalink
    July 19, 2011 3:59 pm

    @you am I,

    Als thats fine and dandy. Paths, paths and more paths. Lets talk of some dstinations now. But you don’t still doesn’t answer the moot point. How the jiminy do I identify if this guy who is telling me that he has “gone beyond” has actually “gone beyond” but in reality he isnt looking beyond my pocket.

    • You am I permalink
      July 19, 2011 4:18 pm

      @stupidseeker

      the destinations are mentioned along with the paths.read again.

      as for the “gone beyond” guy, even i don;t have a clue. I will wait till 60 (or if i don’t make it ,in the next birth) for the guru to land at my door rather than venturing otherwise.

      am reading the freely available sanskrit and english texts meanwhile.If you care i can share

  7. stupidseeker permalink
    July 19, 2011 4:27 pm

    Ah no You Am I,
    Blimey you are saying that while all this hitech spiritual stuff exists to take you beyond, there aint no way of actually decipehering who is the real stuff and who is the junkie?? I mean the least we can expect is some kinda certificate right.

    Anyways you go on with your sanskrit stuff, I dont think I can handle all that Ananda.

    Im of to have a swill of whisky and a leg of beef with my lower caste convert freinds, care to join. Nothin like that to get the dopamine flowing, except ofcourse for you know what. Pardon the infarction.

    • You am I permalink
      July 19, 2011 4:38 pm

      @stupidseeker

      I am sorry, I don’t eat anything with a face.

      enjoy your whiskey – it’s Christ’s blood after all – a variant i admit 🙂

      It;s easy for you and as you proudly boast: your low caste friends – you don’t need any proof that a dead on jew on a stick was resurrected but you are put off by the fact that there;s no fool proof evidence of a true guru.

      cheers!

  8. harshal permalink
    July 19, 2011 5:49 pm

    “you don’t need any proof that a dead on jew on a stick was resurrected but you are put off by the fact that there;s no fool proof evidence of a true guru”- brilliant!

    There is no way this ignorant convert can respond to that!

  9. The Doctor permalink
    July 19, 2011 9:36 pm

    @ALL,

    A couple of quick things. Firstly, this blog isn’t anti-Hindu or any other religion, so can you two (you know who you are) please cool it off with the incessant mudslinging between the pair of you?! And please try to keep things on topic, otherwise it just gets boring for everyone else and many can easily be offended.

    For those who have commented as to why this blog has suddenly appeared to take a new direction, it hasn’t really. I just feel we really need to explore something in much more detail which we have only really looked at in passing so far.

    SSRS at the very least claims to be a Hindu, and the teachings of his organization are predominantly based on Hindu principles. However, many have objected to Art of Living being called a Hindu organization, and this I can certainly sympathize with as these individuals don’t want any association between a dangerous cult and the religion/philosophy that they love. In fact many claim that there are a large number of differences between Art of Living’s teachings and Hinduism. Yet at the same time, SSRS is purportedly revered by many Hindus in India and worldwide.

    Naturally, to someone like me who is not a Hindu, this is all very confusing. What would be really useful would be to highlight all the ways which Art of Living is different from Hinduism, and in particular how it has twisted any tenets of Hinduism to forward its own agenda.

    In particular for those of you who on this and the previous thread have protested that SSRS is not a Hindu and/or that Art of Living is not the same as Hinduism, please can you provide as many examples as to the differences between the two as you possibly can? And no, please understand that nobody is coming to any conclusions that just because AoL has done bad things this means that Hinduism is bad. AoL is a rotten apple because of its cult like nature and its leader.

    If we can expose all these differences between Hinduism and AoL, especially where there are contradictions between the two, this will go a long way towards helping many Hindus who have been sucked into Art of Living believing that SSRS is a true Hindu Guru, to see exactly how they have been cheated.

    • Doubt permalink
      July 20, 2011 7:07 am

      @ Doctor
      AOL is more like a cult and Hinduism is even beyond religion, it is Dharma or way of life,an eternal order or Rta. Therefore, there is just no comparison of AOL and Hinduism. AOL is a drop of curd in the ocean of milk that is Hinduism and one drop of curd cannot curdle the ocean. AOL takes few principles distorts them and present as a true knowledge, I have no problem with that but do not call ” AOL is Hinduism.”

      The supreme court of India in its judgement has said “.Unlike other religions or religious creeds Hindu religion not being tied-down to any definite set of philosophic concepts, as such. ”
      In the same judgement, it has tried to identify, some defining characterstics of Hinduism and they are:

      1.Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters and acceptance with reverence of Vedas by Hindu thinkers and philosophers as the sole foundation of Hindu philosophy.
      2.Spirit of tolerance and willingness to understand and appreciate the opponent’s point of view based on the realization that
      truth was many-sided.
      3.Acceptance of great world rhythm, vast period of creation, maintenance and dissolution follow each other in endless
      succession, by all six systems of Hindu philosophy.
      4.Acceptance by all systems of Hindu philosophy the belief in rebirth and pre-existence.
      5.Recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are many.
      6.Realization of the truth that Gods to be worshipped may be large, yet there being Hindus who do not believe in the worshipping of idols.
      7.Unlike other religions or religious creeds Hindu religion not being tied-down to any definite set of philosophic concepts, as such.
      Last one annuls first six ones. If it is so difficult for Supreme Court of India to define Hinduism, I can understand problems faced by other in understanding Hinduism.

      By the way, the judgment was delivered in in the ruling of the case, “Bramchari Sidheswar Shai and others Versus State of West Bengal“. The case was regarding declaring Ramakrishna Mission as a non-Hindu, minority religion, under the Indian constitution.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 20, 2011 4:09 pm

        Yawn,
        and at the end of that story im told to take it on faith.

  10. July 20, 2011 1:13 am

    @Doctor

    “How does one recognize a true Guru?”

    A true Guru awakens u with Shaktipat [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktipat]
    If u r ready for the path, the Guru should give a personal demonstration of acceptance
    It is not right to accept someone as Guru based on other people’s ‘Guru stories’

  11. The Doctor permalink
    July 20, 2011 5:33 am

    (left in a comment by Meditator some time back, I was going to turn this into a separate post but this seems to be an appropriate time to post it)

    Just read it somewhere and thought of posting it here. This is not a dig at HHSSRS but a general message.

    How To Recognize a True Master

    Few people are fortunate enough to have a genuine master in their lives, but spiritual knowledge is readily available. Make knowledge your master, and you will find the right knowledge if you truly seek it. When it comes to finding a master use your commonsense. There are many people who possess knowledge but are using it wrongly. A true master will never use knowledge for material gain. True masters will be selfless and use knowledge only for their and others spiritual growth. A master will not spoil you, he will train your spirit. Many people convince themselves that they have the right master because they like what the master is offering, the knowledge is easy to digest, it does not require them to change and it involves material growth. If you are on a quest for the truth, your commonsense should tell you that the truth is not easy. If you have an ego the truth is always hard to accept as the ego prevents you from gaining true understanding.

    A true master will never cripple you. A true master will help you discover the master within you. You will not be dependent; you will be self sufficient. Do not run from the master who offers you the truth. Run from the master who feeds your ego. Run from the master who weakens your spirit and lowers your self esteem and self worth. Run from the master who makes you dependent on you. Use your commonsense and instincts and you will be led to the right master or knowledge.

    Sometimes, human beings think they will get materialistic help or information about others if they contact the spirit souls. This is not possible as spirit souls would never reveal information about others and would never discuss material things, nor would they indulge in any predictions. Spirit souls are only concerned with spiritual guidance, so be aware of masters who offer anything else.

    • Meditator permalink
      July 20, 2011 8:02 am

      The above excerpt is from a book titled “Life in the spirit world” by Khorshed Bhavnagri. She had lost her two sons in car accident in 1980 and the entire book is based on her conversations (automatic writing and telepathic) with the departed souls. A must read for AOL haters as well as lovers. The copyright of the book is held by Shiamak Davar. It’s available on flipkart.com for Rs 239.

      Should be an eye opener for many – Harshal included 🙂

    • Meditator permalink
      July 20, 2011 8:23 am

      The book also tells about the futility of all religions be it Hinduism, Christianity, Jainism, Islam etc etc etc. It only talks about one religion – LOVE and COMPASSION – something that SSRS also preaches and “perhaps” also follows. Read it guys with an open mind and hopefully some more AOL lovers will see the true light and would realize that salvation cannot be guaranteed by even a true Guru. It’s all in the hands of an individual.

      The irony of AOL cult followers is that they are so blinded by the Guru’s aura that they have forgotten their true self. Is love and compassion anywhere visible in Harshal’s rants? He is deeply attached with AOL and any person who reads this blog should decide for himself/herself the quality of disciples that Ravi Shankar produces. Get out of this cult asap guys before it’s too late.

      • Harshal permalink
        July 20, 2011 12:48 pm

        Is love and compassion anywhere visible in Harshal’s rants?

        haha, love and compassion for these idiots!

        btw that book is good for some of you nuts. It asks questions like, what is the population of spirit world 😛

      • You am I permalink
        July 20, 2011 1:50 pm

        @Mediator

        Hinduism,Buddhism and other Dharmas must not be clubbed with Abrahamic religions, IMHO.

        The idea that one must rise above “religion” (panth/sect) to realize one self has emerged from Dharma.Abrahmic religions have no clue or affinity to this idea.

        Dharma declares that even the idea of compassion and love is applicable only to the MANIFEST world and not to the UNMANIFEST Supreme principle.The world of the spirits or devas are again extraneous manifestations but not the ultimate goal for removing our ignorance completely

        The benefit of following dharmic paths is that it gives you the holistic picture but does not force you to tread it unless you are prepared.Even from the perspective of ontology or theology , dharmic texts resolve our doubts.

        I would request you and others to make an informed judgment, if you must

      • You am I permalink
        July 20, 2011 2:02 pm

        If anyone is interested in learning about various forms of existences – read the thirty one planes of existence by Bhante Suvanno

  12. Anonymous permalink
    July 20, 2011 6:54 am

    “There is no way this ignorant convert can respond to that!”

    Just because he/she believes in one thing doesn’t mean that he/she should believe in everything everyone says.

    For instance you may believe in all the guru stories but not believe in the pointers on this blog.

    ” no fool proof evidence of a true guru” also means your Guru could be a fake.

    • anonymous permalink
      July 20, 2011 1:07 pm

      Ramana Maharishi stated that one knows ones guru where one finds complete peace (I’m paraphrasing here). Also, he states that if a guru tells you to do this or that activity, you should run away, as this is not Guru, but, rather, Brahma, the creator, or Yama, Death, come to destroy you. Again, I’m paraphrasing. If you read any of his writings (I’ve only read translations as I don’t read Tamil), you will find that he gave varied instructions to each person who sat in front of him and asked questions. No one instruction was given to all. Each person was individual, and received what he or she needed from him.

      When I posed questions to SSRS, alone and in person, he brushed them off, saying ‘any answers will just create more questions…’ or ‘just do whatever I tell you, and you’ll understand…’ and ‘don’t read those things (specifically Yoga Vasishtha in one case) because they will just confuse you and make you have questions about me…’ and ‘doubt the doubt’. It became clear to me, over a period of time, with close personal contact, and many brushed off questions, that he could not help me in any direction, except to order me to do work for him, which is what he always reverted to. He also did instruct me that I didn’t need to chant the particular scriptures I was accostomed to chanting, that just remembering him, instead of God was enough. This is just my experience of him, and it became clear to me that he was not my guru at all, so I left. I have not found anyone, as now I distrust all human gurus, due to his peculiar (that’s a mild word) behavior. I had read that in Kali Yuga, gurus might behave in various strange ways, so I forgave these behaviors for some time, until I found them to so go against anything decent and Dharmic, that I had to go away from him. One of the main things which convinced me to leave him, deciding that his case was not one of an ‘Avadhut’ (a person who has reached enlightenment, but acts in ways uncustomary and unacceptable to society), was that he was secretive about his habits and very frightened many times that he would be discovered, and was always asking what people thought about him. The fear of discovery convinced me that he could not be complete, and that he could not guide me. Of course, I cannot prove that he is not enlightened, but his fear in so many situations, which I witnessed, gave me real pause. Why would a man who is Free be afraid of anything, including the opinions of other people? From these things and many others, I concluded that SSRS was not a real guru. Of course, this is my observation only. He could have become enlightened and without fear since I left him, for all I know. I do know that his lack of compassion and other traits proved to me that he was lacking in too many areas to be a master. He is very good at controlling uninformed groups, however, and very charismatic. He is very energetic, and seems to possess certain Siddhis which make one feel certain things around him. Many people reported these things, and I also felt them. But Siddhis do not make a man qualified to lead a soul to enlightenment, from what I have read and asked in other circles.

      • You am I permalink
        July 20, 2011 3:03 pm

        While Ramana Maharishi was a realized soul , he was not a teacher and neither did he want to become a teacher – as it is, he was free from the states of wanting and not wanting.[ as a result some of his shishyas – u g krishnamurty et al – became completely disillusioned and a charvaks to the core]

        while in this article , we are keenly discussing the identity of true Guru, what’s missing is the nature of a true disciple and also the difference between a jeevanmukta(realized soul) , teacher(guru) and Master (shrotria brahmnishtha guru).

        Mundaka upanishad states
        तद्विज्ञानार्थं स गुरुमेवाभिगच्छेत् , समित्पाणिः श्रोत्रियं ब्रह्मनिष्ठम्

        to gain the knowledge of the self , the dispicle must approach the guru with samidha(twigs used for yagya ) – it’s a a symbol of complete surrender of ego – you are ready to burn your ego [mind you not your intellect ,just your me-myness has to be surrendered] in order to help the Guru’s words burn your ignorance.

        The Guru himself must be a shrotriya ( one who removed his own ignorance by listening to the scriptures under his Guru’s guidance ) and brahmnishta (established in his true self)

        The above can be a good guideline of deciding if i am a right candidate for discipleship or the person i am approaching is fit to be called a Guru.

        for instance, i can excuse my self from a so called guru

        1)If i have to pay a good amount to approach him [ remember you can surrender your ego to the one who has surrendered his/her own ! so if the charges are at market price – you have entered a shop and not an ashram]
        2) If i sense that my ego surrender may be exploited by this guy[ look at the other disciples helplessness and you will get a good indication]
        3) If i find the guru getting out of his brahmnistha mode too often [ for example exhorting you to do worldly things for his own benefit]
        4)If the Guru asks you to “seek” enlightenment – as Rama Maharishi states- run ..run before its too late [ enlightenment is kutchus glasses, the more you seek , the more you push yourself in a mess.Enlightenment is knowing and not seeking ]

        now lets come to the disciple, you ain’t a candidate for self-realization if :
        1) you just want to be healthy , fit and nothing more [ self-realization is no grand achievement, on the contrary from a worldly perspective you are doomed !]
        2) Your intellect and ego have not bought the concept of self-realization[ its one thing to be coaxed/motivated/inspired to “become” enlightened, it’s another to “yearn” for it ]
        3) You think that’s it’s an intellectual or physical or mental exercise – it’s none!

  13. harshal permalink
    July 20, 2011 10:28 pm

    “Yawn,and at the end of that story im told to take it on faith”

    Ya make fun of hindus and hindu traditions. You convert, you are lucky that you live in a tolerant ‘hindustan’. If you lived in Saudi, they would have cut off your parts so that you can not further produce the likes of yourselves. Dont test our patience though, if the hindus rise up you will all have to jump in the indian ocean.

    • stupidseeker permalink
      July 21, 2011 5:22 am

      “if”. thats the moot word. if the SAS doctrine is any worth, then you (non)Hindus arent gonna rise up until you have a 50 to 1 advantage.

    • Meditator permalink
      July 21, 2011 10:48 am

      I am a Hindu (by birth) and I do not subscribe to your views. Please do not try to be a spokesperson of all Hindus. It’s OK if this is the view of AOL. Is this what your Guru HHSSRS mean by creating “One World Family”? Come on it’s high time that you guys (AOL) accepted that you are fraud and out there not to do charity or spirituality but to make money.

      BTW, I’m confident that you do not have a job. You are full time on this blog commenting like an idiot. How much does SSRS pay you for this?

      • Harshal permalink
        July 21, 2011 11:18 am

        @ I am ashamed of pussy hindus like you. Because of people like you , hindus were invaded and raped and ruled by all and sundry. It is alright to be secular , but that doesn’t mean you don’t stand up for yourself.

        This converted idiot, with the great inferiority complex he possess is throwing poop all over Hinduism and you want to listen to him patiently. And Dont worry about expletives. They are just words , just like ‘love’ ‘compassion’ etc, see the meanings behind these ;-). These people do not know what to do with their a** after pooping and they start talking and criticizing medical research , so people are going to use expletives.

        And Why can I not be a spokesperson for Hindus? You can force upon me the spokesperson-ship for AOL( which i have denied always) same way I can force upon myself the spokesperson-ship for hindus.

        I see that you have some beef with bawa. Is that why you are blogging here? Did he kick your a** real bad?

  14. Guyana permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:18 am

    Whether former AoLers or current AoLers, this is a must-watch-documentary. A sad story that shows all the basic characteristics and behaviors of a cult and a sociopathic cult leader. A mass suicide and/or a massacre and/or sex scandals and/or money scandals are not necessary to determine a movement is a cult. When any of these happen, it is simply too late. It is a very powerful documentary, even a bit disturbing to watch, because it is a real story that is still happening, in different places, languages, names, masks. It was difficult for me, especially as I started recognizing many familiar conducts, beliefs, m.o, situations … Sadly, Jim Jones was not that different from Mr. Sri Sri, and the People’s Temple not that different from Art of Living. Let not 909 lives be wasted again in such senseless manner, in the name of world peace, spirituality, peace. This is the first link of 9:

  15. Guyana permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:34 am

    This is the other documentary on Jim Jones, Paradise Lost. Both documentaries worth watching. 1 of 9 links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7Jj09K3nQ

  16. independent Observer permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:54 am

    Doc,

    Your this post is simple, elegant and has kept the truth about AOL and SSRS in perspective vis a vis Hinduism in whatever form of shape it may reveal itself. Its light and effective reading. Welcome back. I felt that the earlier posts and reports were getting kind off heavy and were at cross purpose.

    Its good to see Harshy back in serious form. He makes me happy. Each and every time I see his comments, I feel so glad I am a not a part of “that” team anymore.

    Thank you dear Harshal for all the entertainment. Go for it man…..you are the lone ranger in this circuit. Please keep up the good work. Your energy and drive to make the truth distinguishable from the FUD is indeed amazing.

    I am sure that you seek no rewards. But don’t worry…The Guru knows everything…..he is always watching……your brownie points (aka Good Karma) is accumulating and soon you will have everything you ever wanted…Maybe even this blog will just go away and not remind you of your own doubts !!!!…..

    Haaaaahhh!!!, Did I just hear you say….”I don’t have any doubts !!!”….. Hmmmmm….this implies that “You know everything that there is to know about AOL and SSRS”…after all you have no doubts……AND if you know EVERYTHING about SSRS…then you are clearly ENLIGHTENED.

    WOW !!!, What an Eureka moment !!!!!….

    Doc…. you/we have just re-discovered the new Guru….its none other than Harshy himself……

    They say the previous Guru always leads you to the next one…..

    Jai-harshy-dev

    • Harshal permalink
      July 21, 2011 11:24 am

      “Each and every time I see his comments, I feel so glad I am a not a part of “that” team anymore”

      Since I am also a part of this universe, you should also stop being a part of this universe team.

      Since you have made me your guru, I will confer upon thou my special knowledge for today.

      The point is not that you doubt AOL or you dislike someone in AOL. You can neither doubt nor dislike. You can only become ‘doubt’ and ‘dislike’ . For when you doubt and dislike, you are not there, only doubt and dislike are . What you doubt or dislike is irrelevant , what you become is important.

      • Doubt permalink
        July 21, 2011 1:03 pm

        @ Harshal
        So you have philosophical bent too. Great, gyan.

  17. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 3:10 am

    @ The Doctor,

    You hobble me by not allowing my posts. You have excluded me from the ambit of your secularism. Weren’t the last posts of mine on Hinduism? Wasn’t that the topic this time. And no don’t advise me to take them elsewhere.

    • The Doctor permalink
      July 21, 2011 1:33 pm

      @SS,

      If you can show me the relevance of your posts to a) this blog, and b) in particular this thread, I will happily post them.

      As you can see, I have left the ones which clearly are relevant, as well as a couple of innocuous others, but really I’m failing to see what any of the others you’ve posted have to do with the discussion at hand.

      A few posts back you made the argument that “IMHO any critique of AOL and HHSSRS, has to involve a critique of hinduism and its tenets”, however you have thus far spent a considerable amount of time picking flaws in Hinduism for what appears to be the sake of it, and only related it back to AOL/SSRS/the thread in question on a comparatively small number of occasions.

      If you have an argument to make based on your observations, you need to be as verbose as possible, and don’t leave anything to the imagination. As long as you stay relevant, I’ll post what you have to say.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 1:41 pm

        It’s your blog. Your rules.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 2:14 pm

        check out http://www.strippingthegurus.com/ if you havent already.

      • Jaidev permalink
        July 25, 2011 3:03 pm

        @stupidseeker
        The moment you recommended Falk’s book, you lost all credibility. That hate-fueled nutcase has a huge axe to grind against a huge number of organisations, and his lunatic rantings he tries to peddle are based on almost no facts whatsoever, rather, it’s derived almost entirely from hearsay, speculation and often wild accusations.

  18. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:35 am

    Is there anything in the (non)Hindu “faith”…..er…um…”religion”…er..um..”collective philosophy”…er…um “way of life”..etc.etc., that needn’t be taken on faith ? Including the “enlightenment”, “moksha”, “mukti”, “nirvana” etc etc etc of the so called “self realised” “masters” ????

    • You am I permalink
      July 21, 2011 10:32 am

      @stupidseeker

      1. hindu :
      first stage: shravana (faith)
      second stage: manana (reflect /test the faith)
      final stage: nidhyasana(if true. imbibe else reject)
      examples [ Advaitins, dwaitins, arya samajis etc]

      2. (non) :

      firsta and final stage: shravana(blind faith) ,don’t test, just obey

      examples: [Christianity, Islam, Judiams, puranic hindus etc]

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 11:44 am

        The first step needs “faith” you say ! I think you misunderstood my question. i asked :

        Is there anything in the (non)Hindu “faith”…..er…um…”religion”…er..um..”collective philosophy”…er…um “way of life”..etc.etc., that needn’t be taken on faith ? Including the “enlightenment”, “moksha”, “mukti”, “nirvana” etc etc etc of the so called “self realised” “masters” ????

  19. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:48 am

    Paramahamsa yogananda proponent of a technique called Kriya Yoga, which he declared was passed down from Guru to shishya, in his case from his guru Yukteswar Giri to him, his guru having received it from Lahiri mahasaya who in turn received it from mahaavtar babaji who inturn is an incarnation of christ. read it all in autobiography of a yogi. So thats my 200rs in the YSS (Yogoda satsanga society) kitty. Anyways this kriya yoga, yogananda claimed could hasten your “enlightenment” manifold compared to the nomrmal one million lifetimes needed to express “cosmic consciousness”. Obviously yoganandaji did not see the need to explain the obviously complex spirituality by which he arrived at this figure to our “obviously “unenlightned” minds.

    Anyways when in the west Yoganandaji used to impress one and all with his yogic ability thus: he used to invite someone on stage to feel his pulse on both wrists, left and right. So it turns out that this yogi had a pulse in his right wrist but not in his left. Wow wow wow.Come on come all and get initiated in the kriya yoga said the YSS people.

    Turns out later that yoganandaji used to achieve this “yogic”feat by sticking a big lemon into his left armpit and squeezing down before allowing his left pulse to be felt.

    How many more “yogis” like this one.

    • You am I permalink
      July 21, 2011 10:18 am

      @stupidseeker

      nice info. unfortunately most people run after miracles. Be it resurrection of the dead, virgin (though engaged) ladies giving birth, stones running away with clothes of prophets ..billions of “unenlightened” “souls” abound on this planet..who would swear on their parents that all these miracles are true. The documentary does the same , it preys upon the greed of people to witness/experience miracles within and without.

      However, sciences like meditation and yoga have stood the test of modern scientific scrutiny. Of course there are charlatans in every field, but that does not negate the field itself.Finance is a valid field , despite crooks bringing one financial meltdown upon another

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 11:18 am

        @You Am I,

        An answer well within the parameters of the SAS doctrine.Yeah lots of people running after miracles,I mean
        if the idol of an elephant god can start drinking milk then a lot else can happen.

        Indeed, meditation and yoga are “sciences”, that have to be learnt from a “Guru”, whose “enlightened” status will have to be taken on “scientific” faith , the term “enlightened” itself subject to any number of “scientific” definitions under the SAS doctrine.

        Happy scientific enlightenment.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 11:27 am

        Perhaps you could tell us of a few “scientific” tests to identify the “enlightened” guru ?? And while we are it, how about showing us some scietific proof of “enlightenment” ??

      • You am I permalink
        July 21, 2011 12:35 pm

        @stupidseeker

        no scientific evidence of yoga??? Man! you must be the first one to learn, it would help you with your premature ejaculations on this blog

        here’s yoga as a treatment for premature ejaculation.
        http://www.nature.com/nrurol/journal/v5/n2/full/ncpuro1007.html

        Yoga therapy can ameliorate migraine without aura
        http://www.nature.com/nrneurol/journal/v3/n8/full/ncpneuro0540.html

        Body temperature changes during the practice of g Tum-mo yoga
        http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v295/n5846/abs/295234a0.html

        so next time, before you ejaculate, at-least do a Google search.All above papers are published in the most respected peer-reviews journal of science

        you also forget our previous discussion on empiricism. science can at max , point to the absolute.it cannot establish it.

        anyways, that;s the least of your concerns . you start with simple yoga exercises right now as there’s scientific proof for them.

  20. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:51 am

    http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,971515233001_2075202,00.html

    This had been posted on this site before. I’m posting it once again for those who mightve missed it.

    • The Doctor permalink
      July 21, 2011 11:15 am

      The movie has definitely been posted, but I don’t think this particular clip has. I especially like:

      Vikram Gandhi: “What if I became a spiritual leader? If I could do it, wouldn’t it prove anyone could? With a few cosmetic changes, I could easily look like a guru.”

      Using all he had learned from his family, and spending hours with various Gurus, he decided to become a Guru himself.

      Exhibiting the external signs of a Guru, and giving people knowledge seemed to be enough for these people to believe that he was genuine enough. And that part about people really feeling they had a connection with him, wasn’t that fascinating and slightly worrying at the same time?

      • You am I permalink
        July 21, 2011 11:29 am

        @Doctor

        ROFL ..check this out ..bio of sri sri kumare’ 😉

        http://www.kumare.org/about/

        There’s even one song dedicated to lord kumare by a devotee on youtube

      • Meditator permalink
        July 21, 2011 12:19 pm

        @You am I

        Well at least Kumare (whoever he is) has some lineage as per the website. What about the AOL CEO/CFO who keeps on adding H’s and S’s to his name.

      • You am I permalink
        July 21, 2011 1:41 pm

        @Mediator

        Lolz! you got it wrong ! that is a doctored lineage !

        Kumare is none other than American documentary director Vikram Gandhi.He made a real life documentary by faking as Guru Sri Kumare and finding out is people find solace in even fake religion or gurus?

        watch his interview here

      • The Doctor permalink
        July 21, 2011 2:01 pm

        Whooooaaaaaaa!!! Time out!!

        Check out who’s in the photo with Kumare on the link You am I posted:

        http://www.kumare.org/about/

        Scroll down to the very bottom of the page, and hold on to your seats ladies and gentlemen!!

      • Meditator permalink
        July 21, 2011 2:07 pm

        @you am I

        That was too good.

      • You am I permalink
        July 21, 2011 2:32 pm

        TY @Mediator

        @Doctor ..dint i say ..check it out 😉

  21. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 11:29 am

    BTW here’s another video of the mentalist Derren brown effecting instant conversions.

  22. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 11:55 am

    @ The Doctor,

    This link has been posted here again. this regards the eveidence that TM led to the following disorders.

    76% of long-term meditators experience psychological disorders — including 26% nervous breakdowns
    63% experience serious physical complaints
    70% recorded a worsening ability to concentrate
    Researchers found a startling drop in honesty among long-term meditators
    Plus a detailed examination of the history, culture, and secret teachings of the TM movement.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20041009201024/trancenet.org/research/index.shtml

    TM represents the jewel in the crown of the shankaracharya lineage. If the findings of the research are true, incidenetally the findings were upheld by the german court, then it casts a pall on the numerous claims made by the TM movement abouts its supposed efficacy. Infact no need to go that far even. Just take a look at the SKY.

    I’m stronlgy beginning to suspect that much of this civilisation was all about mind control if not all of it.

    I can imagine one sanyasi looking at another sanyasi and asking him “Did you fake it too”.

    Once at jaggi vasudev’s satsang, as usual some people went into their usual paroxysms, since the presecene of jaggo is supposed to do that. One lady was caterwauling loud enough to bring the ceiling down. then one of the brahmacharis walked upto her and said someting in her ear, and she piped down. So if she could pipe it down whats to say she couldn’t pipe it up.

  23. Meditator permalink
    July 21, 2011 12:14 pm

    Dear Webmaster,

    can you please stop approving comments based on a particular religion unless and until it is in someway related to AOL. This is simply diluting the purpose of the blog.

    • anonymous permalink
      July 22, 2011 1:25 pm

      I agree with meditator — stupid seeker seems just to be here to bash hinduism. It has nothing to do with AOL, and I suspect neither did he ever having anything to do with AOL. Why is he posting here? It’s a diversion from the topic, which is AOL, and SSRS.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 22, 2011 2:15 pm

        Always worship the stronger God I say. Always.

  24. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 1:29 pm

    @You Am I,

    Well done You Am I, by your articles you have shown that yoga works no better than modern medicine at alleviating premature ejaculation, and migraine. Cool.

    BTW check out the NDM-1 strain of bacteria which your country is exporting arouund the world. Maybe your ganges water may work on that.

    BTW how about some research by nature on “enlightenemnt”. I mean whose enlightenment” is the true “enlightnement”. That of the shaivas, vaishnavas, ISKCON etc etc etc etc etc etc

    • You am I permalink
      July 21, 2011 2:29 pm

      @stupidseeker

      That NDM 1 trick was to hurt the growing medical tourism industry of India. They apolized for the same when caught:

      Quote
      “The potential of NDM-1 to be a worldwide public health problem is great, and coordinated international surveillance is needed,” said the article. Later, a co-author noted that some material had been inserted into the article without his knowledge; the editor of The Lancet had to apologize for naming the bug after New Delhi UnQuote

      so stop worrying about us , just take of that non-indian e-coli strain 🙂

    • Jaidev permalink
      July 25, 2011 3:09 pm

      Well, Mr Stupid, at least yoga works, and is based on empirical R&D, and is a result based system. You are not asked to pray to the only saviour to take away all your sins if all you’re asking for is a cure for headache.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 30, 2011 5:24 am

        So does aerobics, calisthenics, athletics and a whole host of other physical activities all of which is based on empirical R&D.

        As for prayers check out the folllowing link for a huge huge huge list of prayers for just about anyhitng under the sun to just about any number of gods for just about anything under the sun including the sun itself.

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rvi01.htm

  25. Harshal permalink
    July 21, 2011 1:29 pm

    @You am I

    Converted stupidseeker and the likes of him don’t realize that a negative study doesn’t mean that all the other studies are bogus.These contradictory studies highlight the complexities of human biology.

    PS: he suffers not from premature ejaculation, he suffers from retrograde ejaculation, because we know he is crap and he is just ejaculating all over himself.

  26. stupidseeker permalink
    July 21, 2011 1:35 pm

    @You Am I,
    you also forget our previous discussion on empiricism. science can at max , point to the absolute.it cannot establish it.
    anyways, that;s the least of your concerns . you start with simple yoga exercises right now as there’s scientific proof for them.

    As your “religion”…..er….um…”collective Philosophy” has established the absolute by using the faith of its adherents. Only have faith in it and the “absolute” is established.
    As for going to some “enlightened one” to learn some simple yoga exercises I suggest that you go about teaching them to millions of your countrymen who need them more than I do. since im a fervent believr in the efficacy of a swill of whiskey..ahem…blood of the you know what…and a leg of beef as a cure all.

    Pity the Doctor didnt show where i got my beef from

  27. The Doctor permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:29 pm

    My friend who is a Hindu recently told me that only a saint can recognize a saint.

    This begs the question, what hope is there for the rest of us unenlightened beings?

    • Harshal permalink
      July 21, 2011 2:42 pm

      wow , you got some real enlightened friends and you trust them in toto. waytogo.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 21, 2011 3:04 pm

        and you scientifically tested HHSSRS’s enlightenment didn’t you. care to show that piece of research ??

  28. Harshal permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:47 pm

    nice! now we have anti-india videos too!

    brilliant video though. The shit in the video nicely complements all the shit on this blog.

    • stupidseeker permalink
      July 21, 2011 3:01 pm

      Anti-india ???? whooo harshie sweep it all under the carpet eh! SAS at work here too

      • Harshal permalink
        July 21, 2011 3:56 pm

        what is SAS?

  29. You am I permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:52 pm

    @Doctor

    how come this video is okay and mine was not ?

    • The Doctor permalink
      July 21, 2011 3:02 pm

      “how come this video is okay and mine was not ?”

      Both got spammed, you probably saw it before it got spammed.

  30. Harshal permalink
    July 21, 2011 3:56 pm

    “no country is perfect. even in your country , there could be enough footage on the wrong side”

    He is not from some other country. He is Indian. However, he is Christian first and Indian later. Time to find and spray endosulfan over these mosquitoes.

  31. visitor permalink
    July 21, 2011 7:46 pm

    hi Doc,

    i havent gone thru all the comments..so sth may be repeated. ..in ref, to the topic. i think it is not possible. there are too many assumptions and interpretations in that. even if we assume for a moment that there is a perfect guru..the next question comes can you recognise him?…or say how can you/me (with little knowlegle) recognise someone like that?…if at all a guru exists,,,i think it will be easier the other way round…that he recognises a good desciple…somewhat like Chanakya chose Chandragupta..(of Krishna chose Arjun) the combination may still not be perfect.

    now i question the assumptio: that a perfect guru exists?..what is a (perfect) guru?…is he same for all?…e.g. some great musician may be a perfect guru for a music aspirant, but for a science aspirant he is useless (this may sound too obvious..but try to see, it hides in what do you want…what is your capability of wanting/thinking)…

    and how are you going to do that?….
    may be i can compare that with finding a perfect love…i guess we all believed in that as teenagers.. now how may of us have found it (without compromise?)..does the image of perfect love not arise from our own experiences, knowlegde and desires?…rather than it being something same for all…universal.
    our definition or better say image of perfect love changes as we change..

    perhaps not the same applies to guru..but its very similar..at least the way we are going on with a guru. (maybe i will rite more in some more appropriate context).

    anyway coming back to a guru…lets say a perfect guru exists..and i tell you I am a perect guru…and I know the way to god (i just typed dog!!..and that i definitely know:)). are you ready to follow me?
    you possibly wont, because u dont see in me what you want to see…(and you possbily dont even know clearly what you are looking for)…(somewhat like love again)

    we expect that a master comes to us (or we go to him) and he clears all our delusions…i.e. tells us WHAT TO WANT…and then tells us how to get that (and we spend the rest of our life on that)..

    you see you have nothing to test (the guru) with, except your gut feelings and some previous knowledge. you may at the most find an honest, learned, well-wisher person..

    Bin laden was perhaps a perfect guru for some, because they were convinced by him, they gave their lives…for some others gandhi, hitler, ssrs etc. are perfect gurus..as long as they are coherent with their ways..somewhat like a perfect love..who is not living with you under one roof (and hence the love persists..)

    • The Doctor permalink
      July 21, 2011 8:27 pm

      This is a very well thought-out response @Visitor, and I like your analogy.

      I am reminded of the opening lines to Autobiography of a Yogi, where Yogananda declares:

      The characteristic features of Indian culture have long been the search for ultimate verities and the concomitant disciple-guru relationship.

      In the same way as the young are conditioned to believe that some day they will find “The One” true love, it seems as if Hindus (and anyone who happens to have unwittingly joined a cult who’s principles are based on Hinduism, ahem ;-)) are conditioned to believe that one day they will find their one true Guru. But in neither case is any means ever provided as to how one goes about recognizing this one. It certainly seems that this is a weakness in the system, and as I have alluded to above, one which is very easily exploitable by charlatans. But then I guess no system is perfect in this respect.

      Perhaps the only way to tell the difference between those who are genuine and those who are fake is through personal experience and sharing of experiences. It may be that this is something that we all had to go through, which contributes to our growth by making us stronger and wiser to the ways of the world, and which will help to prevent us from coming to far greater harm if a similar situation should ever arise in the future.

      • July 22, 2011 3:43 am

        “Autobiography of a yogi” has several mentions of miracles like “being in two places at the same time”, 360 degree vision , “materialize objects”.

        Hence, knowing what i know now, the authors seem to fall in the category of snake oil salesman type of yogis aka sai baba.

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 6:40 am

      @Visitor & @Doctor

      Our ignorance can be of the realities without or within.Guru simply means one who removes our ignorance (Gu= ignorance ru= remover )

      so a teacher who removes the ignorance without is also a guru [ the ones who teach us language, science etc etc] and the one who removes the layers of ignorance within is also a guru.

      The scriptural pointers are neither juvinile nor incorrect.The problem is with half readings.The true guru is useless without a true disciple and vice versa It’s in this context that the scriptures state that “the Guru will find a shishya and not the other way round” .Otherwise , the scriptures first statement is that the the best guru is not found outside, but is always present with us as the “inner voice within” ..It’s just that our egos and intellect override this inner voice so may times that we can hardly hear it after a while.If you can cultivate the habit of listening to this inner voice , you don’t need an outside guru – easier said than done though – and hence we end up chasing one guru or the other.

      It’s not Hindu conditioning, but Hindu wisdom which states that “The One” true love will find you and not the other way round.It’s a pointer to those people who are not yet ready but “seek” “The One” true love ..the more you seek , the more you are doomed.How many of us are really comfortable with the idea of infinity without identity ? – The true Guru would do exactly that – he will knock off your individuality – are you game ?

      there’s no duality in Love, it is! you are it! but like a musk dear you start chasing -seeking one true love – whatever you experience in that chase alters your useless definitions and descriptions of love- that is how we get so many definitions and almost zero realization of love.

      fast food enlightenment is just one such chase and you will almost always come out disillusioned sooner or later.The “true” us is like the space within a pot , its no different from the space outside the pot – but how many of us actually realize that? ..most of us only feel that we are the space within the pot – and thus we chase allegedly bigger pots and soon we have lot many idiot pots like me in satsang with the bigger pot trying to reach our “infinite limitlessness”.

      when the hindu scripture says that a guru will come to you ..it only means that the day you are ready to give up your “potship” , a guru will come and break the pot , what will remain afterwards is what you were already – limitless space – “the One” true love if you will.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 22, 2011 7:38 am

        This no doubt from a scripture whose teachings will have to be taken, atleast at the very first , on faith,right, just like we have to take the enlightenment of the guru on faith, or as HHSSRS says, take it for granted ???

        Wonder why people don’t take my enlightenment for granted

      • You am I permalink
        July 22, 2011 8:23 am

        @ss

        The scripture does not ask you to toe the line blindly. In fact ,all endeavors ,secular or spiritual, start with an initial faith. In science, without the initial hypothesis, you cannot move to the next step. the hindu systems calls out for treating the scripture just like that – a hypothesis. if you find out later that it doesn’t work , you are free to discard it.

        as to your enlightened self , i will say just this much : spaced-out is not space 🙂

        if hhssrs says that he can ensure enlightenment through his breathing package courses – he is stating something which is against the scripture. so you see, again , read the preface before reading the novel and you would be better off whatever that means

      • anonymous permalink
        July 22, 2011 1:55 pm

        Two interesting posts, You Am I, the scriptural quotes and this one. Thanks. To me, if a disciple goes with full faith to a guru, offering themselves, having ‘interviewed’ that guru, and believes what the guru tells him, then they should be well on their way. My experience is this: SSRS was a ‘perfect guru’ for me in one exact way: after several years of doing exactly what he said, while still asking him many questions about what was going on, keeping the necessary inquisitiveness necessary for growth in the spiritual path, in my opinion, I found out exactly how I didn’t want to be, and how I never wanted to become, how I never wished to behave, by observing him and some senior teachers. The basic ethical deviations which were required to be very near to him, just became unacceptable to me. I realized that (for me) to surrender to such adharmic activities and behaviors, would ultimately harm me, as I saw it harming others who believed they were becoming ‘enlightened’ by doing certain things. A good example, but not the most intimate one, is seeing people who seemed a little imbalanced when I met them, become teachers, then become senior teachers, and become more and more violent, uncontrolled and abusive to people around them who were not newcomers they were trying hard to get involved. To those who were already involved, some of these people felt free to be very nasty indeed, and SSRS would say “they are pushing buttons”, or, if one of them was harmed in some extreme way (which I also observed — not just psychological harm), SSRS passed this off as that person’s “very bad karma from another life” and the perpetrator of the crime was not punished at all, and others were told not to help the injured party, but, instead, to avoid them, as they had “terrible karma”. This was very bizarre to me. I couldn’t accept it, and told SSRS that I was ‘ashamed’ to be part of anything like that. He looked surprised, and said suddenly that he was ‘also ashamed’. Yet he continued in this way. This is just one of many examples varying in intensity. These things, over a few years, convinced me that surrender to SSRS was misplaced, and would lead nowhere good. I didn’t feel very enlightened to participate in such things. I didn’t observe any very enlightened behavior in others who willing participated in such things. Some of the things I experienced and saw I cannot/will not print here, because they are too personal, and, frankly, too awful. (I know, there is no ‘proof’. I’m not offering any. Just saying what happened to me and others around me to the degree I think is proper in polite, litigious society).

        So in this way, SSRS was, indeed, the ‘perfect guru’ for me. A blessing from God. A warning from the Divine that just because a man has tremendous Siddhis, powers, talents, doesn’t make him someone who can guide me through the ocean of samsara successfully. It has made him a great businessman, with lots of success and lots of followers. I don’t care about that, except that the monies given as charitable could be being misplace. Still, not my business. But should a sincere seeker get sidetracked, let’s hope it’s not for too long. Losing even a few years to such a lesson is hard indeed when someone truly wants to know more and yearns for enlightenment from their heart and soul.

        Still, I don’t personally regret my time in AOL or with SSRS, because I learned this lesson: I cannot tell which ‘master’ will have me bowing down, and then could change into something else, demanding things that just go completely against everything I was raised to do. And so, due to SSRS, I will never in this lifetime trust another human guru with my own life. I have privately laid down some rules as to how/if any guru would be acceptable to me, none of which I will share here. Although I attend various and sundry satsangs, because I love bhajans, I will never in this lifetime make the mistake that I made with SSRS. I will protect my time on earth, and do sadhana to the best of my ability, and pray for Grace. I found out that is all I can do.

        I do not believe that abuse from the guru, and carrying out instructions that are adharmic, hasten enlightenment. If I am wrong, I will find out when I die. Until then, I have to trust the scriptures, which You Am I has posted above, as well as readings from Masters such as Ramana Maharishi.

      • You am I permalink
        July 22, 2011 3:40 pm

        @anonymous

        your post comes from the heart and i agree with your conclusions.The scriptures themselves emphatically state that not only the guru , but even the scriptures themselves will have to be dropped in the final realization of self – which must be obvious – the non-dual cannot have anything other than itself !

        I wish you all the best in your quest of self-realization.Ramana Maharishi indeed is interesting read

  32. 2bit permalink
    July 21, 2011 8:17 pm

    Guru’s presence or thought creates lightness, clarity and joy. Like a baby lightens up at the sight of its mother. So only an individual’s experience about the person can be the litmus test. There cannot be general norms about it. Someone can be Guru to you, and still be source of anguish to someone else.

    One would think it is natural to gravitate in the directions that elevate them. But why would one spend hours typing about things they find not so elevating?

    Well…I heard prakriti (nature) also has vikriti (perversion) embedded right in it. I am curious about the genesis of this vikriti?

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 8:58 am

      Well…I heard prakriti (nature) also has vikriti (perversion) embedded right in it. I am curious about the genesis of this vikriti?

      prakriti has three constituents sattva(purity, reality), rajas(action) and tamas(inertia)in equilibrium. When it comes in contact with consciousness creation begins as it’s three gunas become dis balanced.

      Vikritis are the caused elements like Akasha(space-time , dig-kaala), Vayu (gases), Agni (heat/fire), Apah( fluids/water), Earth (solids/earth) and, pertaining humans, they are the mind, the 5 gyanendriyas (organs of knowledge) and the 5 karmendriyas (organs of action)

      • 2bit permalink
        July 22, 2011 3:13 pm

        @you am I,

        Your response doesn’t make sense to me. Elements too make prakriti. Elements and Guna are two different ways of dividing of the same thing, the world experience.

        But where there is Vikriti, the elements or gunas come together in a way that is anomalous to nature. What makes them so?

      • You am I permalink
        July 22, 2011 4:05 pm

        @2bit

        let me explain in detail . From a relative perspective, creation happens. It happens when prakriti (which is inert by itself, which has the three gunas in equilibrium but latent in it ) comes in contact with consciousness. This results in the creation of Mahat at the cosmic level (comparable to buddhi at the human level). Mahat in turn creates Ahamkara (i-ness , loosely called ego in at human level)

        It’s this Ahamkara that breaks the equilibrium and is the the cause of vikritis (which are the caused elements like the panchmahabhutas and gyan/karmendriyas and manas)

        hope that answers the question

  33. Anon permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:44 pm

    @2bit

    “But why would one spend hours typing about things they find not so elevating?”

    Their hours of typing has already elevated thousands from the clutches of a cult.

    • 2bit permalink
      July 22, 2011 3:03 pm

      really?

      …seems the bloggers are the ones in the clutches some perverse fetish. They are addicted to drowning themselves in thoughts of AOL, which obviously not a source of joy for them. what makes a person masochistic like that? I understand someone likes AOL and goes for it. Someone doesn’t like AOL and don’t go for it. A normal behavior. But someone who doesn’t like AOL and yet chant AOL all day is serious anomaly.

      • Harshal permalink
        July 22, 2011 3:33 pm

        “But someone who doesn’t like AOL and yet chant AOL all day is serious anomaly”- brilliant observation.

      • Jr. permalink
        July 22, 2011 3:33 pm

        We’re not chanting AOL, we’re simply warning others of the dangers. We have moved on or else we would still be in AOL and not on this blog.

        The irony is you’re telling us to move away from this blog (because you like to pretend all is good in AOL), but you can’t move away from this blog yourself.

  34. stupidseeker permalink
    July 22, 2011 4:10 am

    cos i know you deleted almost all of my posts that may have showin the (non)hindu religion..er..eum collective philosophy….etc etc in bad light.

    you removed some of my juiciest videos. I have no problem with anyone lampooning faith whichever one that maybe as percieved by my opponents.

  35. Meditator permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:07 am

    Replicating a post posted on Bawa and Dinesh’s blog. How many people agree to his tone and language. Does this once again not prove the quality of disciples that SSRS has and whether he is genuinely a guru?

    For those who are not aware Bawa is an IITian from IIT Bombay and now amongst one of the closest to HHSSRS.

    http://bawandinesh.name/answers-for-an-ignoramus/

    One guy dropped out of a course that dinesh and i are teaching in Bangalore. A friend of his who had got him to the course wrote me a set of questions that he had rasied and so decided not to continue on the course… here they are, and my answers to the same…

    1. If some one asks a question, how can you say you don’t know, you are a teacher, you should know it. For example: one participant had asked, what’s the benefit of three stage Pranayam? And you said you don’t know.

    I didnt say that, i said i would rather that you experience it yourself so its not a concept for you but an undeniable reality!

    Besides that, as a teacher, if i don’t know something, i would rather be honest and say i don’t know rather than fart about the answer and deceive my students. It has happened that sometimes i have been asked a question that i don’t know the answer to, i have told the person concerned that i don’t know, and that i will get back to you once i have learned about it. Any good teacher should do this! This of course doesn’t apply to your question but its nice to know.

    2. Why do you bow down to that guru? I firmly believe in bowing only to the God, and not any human being. So I will not listen to those people who bow down to any guru. I also don’t like people worshipping guru. I have read many things of guru’s not walking their own talk.

    I will bow down to Guruji bcoz i want to… if you dont like it… thats too bad for you … go somewhere else.

    If you “firmly believe in bowing only to the God” then you need to relearn the definition of God as taught to you in kindergarten. He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient. Which in language you will understand means He is everywhere. Ergo, even in Guruji. So when i bow down to Guruji, i am indeed bowing down to God. Amazingly He is in you too… so if someone bows down to you, dont get excited, that person is simply bowing down to that spark of divninity thats present in all of us. In Guruji it shines and is a fire.

    Finally, dont generalise His Holiness Sri Sri Ravishankar to the category of gurus not walking their own talk. You dont know Him yet and you are not in any position whatsoever to comment on Him at all.

    3. I have till now not got any satisfactory answer from any of my friend, as to why they bow down to their guru.

    see above… and i am surprised you still have friends left!

    3. I can not leave non-veg food. I know the bad effects of the food, but I like the taste, so I can’t leave it.

    Then you are directly causing global warming, taking full part in the rape of the environment, being 100% in contributing to world hunger (people are DYING because you and people like you “like the taste of non veg food”) and causing the torment and suffering of billions of animals… if you know the bad effects of a non veg diet and still dont leave, you are a monster.

    4. If you are talking about spirituality, why do you use the words like sexy. In the course you mentioned “there is only one situation when, there is doubt over the decision to be taken. It is when you have equally viable options. For example: if you have to marry a rich girl or a sexy girl”.

    I will use whatever words i need to convey a point… if you are so prudish that the word sexy offends you, then close your ears every time i say it … close your eyes too, don’t read … sexy sexy sexy sexy … My God!! you read it … now you will never go to heaven! GROW UP!!! 🙂

    5. I also don’t like, when you said that “no one should teach the things taught here. Only share the experience”. Why do you want to commercialize the teachings? If some one teaches me C language, I can teach any one C. then why do you want to stop us from teaching?

    You may have done medicine or engineering, does that mean you can open a university and start teaching? The techniques on the course are copyrighted, if you try to teach any of them and get caught, you could have legal proceedings slapped onto you! Just because you have learned something, doesn’t mean you can teach it … if you want to teach, go thru the training and become a teacher, and then by all means teach! We do need many, many teachers, but not half baked ignoramuses please 🙂

    I listened to all these things. And i gave him the appropriate answers to his misunderstandings. And finally i convinced him to come to course today by telling that if you want to get your doubt cleared, then you need to ask the teachers. So he came in today (Today was third day). But he didn’t come inside and only after he cleared his doubt would he enter the course. He had a discussion with Rashmin bhaiya. and then he discontinued the course.

    Here my question is, do i need to do this to convince people like these?

    If a person like this cannot keep his own commitment to attend and finish the course and raise these topics as a flimsy excuse and then does drama like this, then its better they stay away from Art of Living… you do need some sort of maturity to do the course and this person doesnt seem to have any … Please don’t bring people like this for courses, they are simply not ready.

    Jai Gurudeva!

    love

    bawa

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 12:37 pm

      @Mediator

      that response was arrogantly juvenile. I wonder under what wisdom (or lack of) he made his response public!

      IIT is no guarantee of wisdom.[If you don’t believe me read chetan bhagat’s novels 🙂 [not that i don’t like them in a non-intellectual way ].IITs , no doubt, produce the best empirical minds in India – but spirituality is a leap beyond empiricism – so an IIT background does not give you any advantage over others whatsoever- rather it can act as a huge impediment for some.

      Ramana Maharishi or Nisargadatta maharaj [ he ran a bidi (local tobacco) shop ] – both are treated as jeevanmuktas. Nor are any of the contemporary gurus IITians. So If IIT does not help you to become a Guru , it wont add any feathers to a teacher too.

      the most self-damaging statement in the response is

      I will bow down to Guruji bcoz i want to… if you dont like it… thats too bad for you … go somewhere else.

      AOL must clarify if this condition is clearly spelt out before taking the money from customers? Is this condition mentioned unambiguously in all mrktg. collaterals?

      • anonymous permalink
        July 22, 2011 2:02 pm

        Thanks Again, You Am I — your responses are well thought through. (It would be good if you ignored stupid seeker, as he’s just here to fight and it has nothing to do with AOL or HHSSRS).

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 22, 2011 3:02 pm

        “treated” as jeevanmuktas ???

      • You am I permalink
        July 23, 2011 5:46 am

        “treated” as jeevanmuktas ???

        indeed “treated” as jivanmuktas ..it all depends on how it’s “treated” as :

        marlin monroe ? http://www.123opticalillusions.com/pages/albert-einstein-marilyn-monroe.jpg

    • Chamiyaar permalink
      July 22, 2011 7:38 pm

      Bawa is needlessly belligerent. Vikram Hazra gives better answers

      http://www.vikramhazra.com/2011/05/question-from-seeker.html

      > Q1. ABOUT FAITH
      > I am relatively new to AOL(only 1 yr) and I want to be sincere enough to admit that I dont have such GREAT faith in GURUji, as i cant see a bus coming on time for me when i go late to BUS stand as a miracle which i am sure many devotees explained to me as a miracle after coming to AOL, and i want to develop the faith with/without experiencing miracles.
      > I am just being authentic (as GURU ji asked us to be in one of the talks) and truthful to myself. I dont feel the urge to run after his car and give him flower. I just dont feel like it and i am really jealous of the people who run behind his car just to give a flower. How can i develop so much love towards GURUji and faith?

      A: I feel it is very shallow to see faith as being based solely on “miracles” and that too trivial ones. There is absolutely no need to run after your Guru; in fact usually it is more of a disturbance and an inconvenience to people around, and I am sure no Guru would teach such things.

      > Q4. Depressed during GURUji’s Bday
      > — I saw thousands of people deperately wanting to touch GURUji and want to talk to GURUji but i dint feel anything like that. I thought i am a defective human being , and went into depression in the ashram room.
      > How do i develop so much attachment with GURUji whilst being authentic and truthful to myself. ?

      A: If having a Guru means desperately trying to touch His feet, even if it means trampling and pushing aside old people and hurting bystanders, then maybe it is better not to have a Guru. I respect each one’s devotion and expression, but it cannot be at the cost of common human decency and courtesy. Being in His presence is certainly very important — thats why we go to satsang — but at the same time following the knowledge will take you much further

    • The Doctor permalink
      July 23, 2011 4:54 pm

      I’m finding it very hard to believe that a senior teacher and member of SSRS’ inner circle actually wrote this, even though I followed the link through to his website and found the exact same article published there. You should also check out all the comments praising him for his post. Some of them are really enough to make your stomach turn.

      Here’s the only one which I’m surprised they actually published at all, but credit to them for doing so (What’s the bet this will be removed now it’s been published here?):

      (This post is for your personal use and I do not expect it to get published and I doubt if you would publish it anyway)
      Bawa, honestly I expected a more mature response from you. Your response SOUNDS arrogant, defensive and not to the point. These are doubts that lot of people have. How can you call him an ignoramus for not agreeing with you. Honestly I am surprised that you consider yourself a good disciple of Sri Sri and put down others. I consider myself a ardent follower of Sri Sri but arrogance like this from his close disciples is raising lot of questions in my mind. Forgive me but I had been wanting to tell you this for a long time.

      Very well put indeed, especially where they say “I am surprised that you consider yourself a good disciple of Sri Sri and put down others.”

      I’ve heard a lot of rumours about this Bawa across these blogs, which up until now I’ve treated as just that, but this post really confirms a great many of them. If this is what 20 years of being in Art of Living does to you, I would strongly recommend that those still in the organization think carefully about their future there.

      • Jr. permalink
        July 23, 2011 5:45 pm

        OMG. I don’t know what is more disturbing, his answers or the AOL members comments of support. Amazing and saddening what trust in a cult will do to people. I don’t see how anyone can justify these answers or comments as spiritual or loving. His comments are soaked in arrogance, rudeness, blame, and show very little compassion. He seems agitated just like someone else we know on this blog. These are not the spiritual qualities SSRS or AOL preach on their courses or in the knowledge books.

        I would post the comments from the blog, but knowing AOL, they would probably try to sue this blog so I won’t. URL below.

        http://bawandinesh.name/answers-for-an-ignoramus/

      • Meditator permalink
        July 24, 2011 2:22 pm

        I can vouch that Bawa does not publish most of the negative comments on his blog. A couple of years back I had written 3-4 comments one of them being about the financial misdoings in AOL. Needless to say they were not published, neither did I receive any response from him on my mail-id.

      • Jr. permalink
        July 25, 2011 3:15 am

        He does post some negative comments though, which gives him more credit that a lot of other AOL sites. I especially like this one: lol

        “if eating non-veg makes someone monster, I am a big monster. BTW, I do not know if u remember or not, but AOL courses never say that do not have non-veg. It just mentions that bad effects of having non-veg , which I agree but no where it says that eating non-veg will make u a monster.
        Rather reading your post does make you look like one. A big monster sitting in AOL and what he does is all shitty stuff.”

  36. stupidseeker permalink
    July 22, 2011 2:00 pm

    @You Am I
    @ss
    The scripture does not ask you to toe the line blindly. In fact ,all endeavors ,secular or spiritual, start with an initial faith. In science, without the initial hypothesis,………………………………………………………………………………………………………read the preface before reading the novel and you would be better off whatever that means

    If you do not know your destination, then you have to clamber onto the train with only faith in your heart, hoping that your destination will be revealed to you in time.

    That said, you go on to say that in the non (Hindu) faith the adherent is allowed to approach the scripture on the basis of an initial faith in the scripture i.e. in a state of unbelief and to discard it if it doesn’t “work” out for him. This very interestingly leads to a number of conclusions.

    1) There can be as many truths as there are scriptures since no scripture or guru will claim to be lying.

    2) The devotee assesses each of these truths based his personal experience of the scripture, as you mentioned, whether or not it “works” for him.

    3) Each devotee arrives at his “personalized truth” when he finds the scripture or guru or deity that works best for him.

    4) Each devotee can discard one “truth” for another “truth” if his personal experience of the first ‘truth” fails him.

    5) There can be as many methods of assessment of the truth, as adherents. Thus in a group of devotees to one guru, one maybe assessing the guru on the basis of number of desires fulfilled, another maybe doing so on the basis of achievement of good health etc etc etc.

    Thus freedom of (non)religion, within the ambit of (non)religion of course, is carried to it’s zenith with the devotee being allowed to arrive at a “personal truth” which in his experience will be the absolute truth. Thus potentially speaking, if there are six billion people, there could be six billion truths since personal experience is the benchmark for deciding what is true or not, or in other words what “works” or not. Let’s now say that a long time devotee of a certain Guru, who at one considered his guru to be the truth, now has some unpleasant experiences with him, and decides to exchange for another. Thus one truth has now been exchanged for the other. Truly another feather in the cap for the SAS doctrine.

    Then you interestingly equate making a hypothesis with the keeping of the initial faith. If I as a scientist have to choose the better drug between drug A and drug B, I begin with the hypothesis that neither is superior to the other, and then experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis. I cannot keep faith in drug A over drug B or vice versa. That would be called bias. The volition between making a hypothesis and keeping faith is what separates the two essentially. Faith is merely a positive assumption as opposed to making a hypothesis which may proceed from a set of assumptions both negative and positive. I hope that makes the distinction clear.

    Regarding my enlightenment, no one can really comment on it unless they are enlightened themselves. If the “Kumare” video is anything to go by, then the mere claim to enlightenment is sufficient proof of enlightenment. How can anyone disprove someone’s claim of enlightenment any more than prove someone else’s enlightenment? Can you prove Ramana Maharishi was enlightened and HHSSRS is not? Wasn’t Nityananda enlightened to his devotees until his romp went public? And even now, to his faithful, isn’t he still enlightened.

    Then you say that HHSSRS claim of ensuring enlightenment by breathing is unsupported by scripture. I can only say, on the basis of your own claims, that it may be unsupported by your scripture, but not by HHSSRS’s scripture, as you yourself said that “personalized truth” is allowed in the non(Hindu) religion…err……um……collective philosophy.

    And as regarding my wellbeing as long as I have my daily swill of the “blood of Christ” and my leg of beef, I’m enlightened and the rest of the unenlightened world can go and suck a lemon.

    Regards
    SS

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 4:52 pm

      @Doctor

      you deleted my previous lessons to pastor @stupidseeker.

      promise me that you wont delete my response to this one , so that i can enlighten the enlightened pastor

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 25, 2011 4:12 pm

        post that earlier reply on your bulwark thingy. I’d like to see that one

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 6:25 pm

      @SS

      If you do not know your destination, then you have to clamber onto the train with only faith in your heart, hoping that your destination will be revealed to you in time.

      Oh Pastor! don’t confuse self-realization with Abraham monotheism .. where the destination is an unverifiable after-death bed time heaven/hell story.

      In self-realization the destination is the SELF ! — how reassuring ! aiinit? ..you don;t have to die to reach the destination .you ARE the destination . cheers!

      That said, you go on to say that in the non (Hindu) faith the adherent is allowed to approach the scripture on the basis of an initial faith in the scripture i.e. in a state of unbelief and to discard it if it doesn’t “work” out for him. This very interestingly leads to a number of conclusions.

      hmm.. lets check out !
      1) There can be as many truths as there are scriptures since no scripture or guru will claim to be lying.

      There are many verities in this world of duality and as far as this world of duality is concerned , most of them are true . The bee sees only two color variations , while we see three … what appears black to it is true , what appears green to us is also true – the question to ask is do colors exist?

      if you understand the depth of my statement, therein lies the answer to the question of multiple verities .The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different for seekers?

      2) The devotee assesses each of these truths based his personal experience of the scripture, as you mentioned, whether or not it “works” for him.

      you got it wrong. If it does not work on the self – you discard it . as simple as that .

      like the bible says the earth is flat . end of the story ! as simple as that ..don’t waste your time flattening the great oblate spheroid – you will never succeed !

      3) Each devotee arrives at his “personalized truth” when he finds the scripture or guru or deity that works best for him.

      The entire world outside is always a personal truth for any given individual at any point of time (in your reply please quote a non-personal truth). Incidentally, in science too there’s a scientific truth for today , which may become a falsity tomorrow.. but that does deter millions of people from considering the scientific truth of today as the truth. same goes for the seeker . s/he may , based on her/his spiritual level treat a relative truth as the ultimate truth.

      4) Each devotee can discard one “truth” for another “truth” if his personal experience of the first ‘truth” fails him.

      very true . this is the reason why the world is divided into Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Jews and atheists and what not..All have their own truths. one’s truth is that the other is going to hell..by exclusion, all are going to hell 🙂

      5) There can be as many methods of assessment of the truth, as adherents. Thus in a group of devotees to one guru, one maybe assessing the guru on the basis of number of desires fulfilled, another maybe doing so on the basis of achievement of good health etc etc etc.

      Correct! ask the faith healers or baba dardnashak or baba bengalis …ignorance has no limits ..but appears as verities to the ignorant.

      Thus freedom of (non)religion, within the ambit of (non)religion of course, is carried to it’s zenith with the devotee being allowed to arrive at a “personal truth” which in his experience will be the absolute truth. Thus potentially speaking, if there are six billion people, there could be six billion truths since personal experience is the benchmark for deciding what is true or not, or in other words what “works” or not. Let’s now say that a long time devotee of a certain Guru, who at one considered his guru to be the truth, now has some unpleasant experiences with him, and decides to exchange for another. Thus one truth has now been exchanged for the other. Truly another feather in the cap for the SAS doctrine.

      going from one ignorance to other is the fate of the ignorant and it’s not the copyright of any religion- ignorance is a secular trait – for example a protestant can become a catholic can become a non-trinitarian can become a 7th day etc etc

      my friend , the beauty of ignorance is that it knows no bounds

      Then you interestingly equate making a hypothesis with the keeping of the initial faith. If I as a scientist have to choose the better drug between drug A and drug B, I begin with the hypothesis that neither is superior to the other, and then experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis. I cannot keep faith in drug A over drug B or vice versa. That would be called bias.

      True, in drug development all valid compositions are given a fair chance. A rational spirit would sure read all “valid” scriptures.

      if you have faith that the earth is flat, you must read the bible .. no doubt !

      The volition between making a hypothesis and keeping faith is what separates the two essentially. Faith is merely a positive assumption as opposed to making a hypothesis which may proceed from a set of assumptions both negative and positive. I hope that makes the distinction clear.

      from an abrahamic perspective, i can understand your predicament with the word faith( there its the first and also the final stage ). so lets drop the word faith , and say that the first stage is a hypothesis itself ..what do you do with a hypothesis ? you test it !

      so do the same with the scriptures too.treat them as a hypothesis and test them

      Regarding my enlightenment, no one can really comment on it unless they are enlightened themselves.

      you are wrong. while it’s a skill to detect diamond , it takes no time to detect coal.

      If the “Kumare” video is anything to go by, then the mere claim to enlightenment is sufficient proof of enlightenment.

      KUmare video concludes that you are the enlightenment you seek. if you seek blessings and rewards – you end up becoming chelas of gurus..but even in that attempt , what you are essentially seeking is yourself only…it may not, however, be your Self

      How can anyone disprove someone’s claim of enlightenment any more than prove someone else’s enlightenment?

      just like you can prove that jesus was born of a virgin mother and human beings are not

      Can you prove Ramana Maharishi was enlightened and HHSSRS is not? Wasn’t Nityananda enlightened to his devotees until his romp went public? And even now, to his faithful, isn’t he still enlightened.

      let him remain enlightened for his followers. If he aint enlightened for you, that’s good enough. 4 billion people out of 6 believe in fairy tales..7 earths, 7 heavens with stars in lower heavens and moon in middle heaven, stones running away with clothes of prophets, moon splitting into two ..the followers of hhssrs are not even a tiny fraction of that ignorant lot.

      as i said earlier, ignorance has no limits !

      Then you say that HHSSRS claim of ensuring enlightenment by breathing is unsupported by scripture.

      yup! i did manana on the scriptural hypothesis and i found it to be correct :

      you can do that too.Just to give you an example : suppose you do breathing exercises, this will result in some experience..all experience is something that happens to the self , but is not the self ..So how can an experience bring self-realization ? in fact , the craving for the experience may aggravate the situation – you will try to become the “experience” and lose your “self” !

      I can only say, on the basis of your own claims, that it may be unsupported by your scripture, but not by HHSSRS’s scripture, as you yourself said that “personalized truth” is allowed in the non(Hindu) religion…err……um……collective philosophy.

      very true , Hinduism only requests you to come out of your ignorance..it does not force you to become smart today despite yourself- that would be more dangerous ..ainnit?

      And as regarding my well being as long as I have my daily swill of the “blood of Christ” and my leg of beef, I’m enlightened and the rest of the unenlightened world can go and suck a lemon.

      no beef on this one ! you are where you must be ..cheers!

      Rgds

    • anonymous permalink
      July 23, 2011 2:10 pm

      @StupidS You are the worst representative possible for Christianity. I’ve never in my life met any Christian so obnoxious and hateful as you are. What is your exact problem? Just because you put HHSSRS someplace in your post, it gets passed as being “relevant” to the blog which is about people who were in Art of Living, associated with Ravi Shankar, etc. Can’t you find someplace else to sit and complain about Hindus? It’s so boring. You are so boring. You keep changing the subject, crudely, back to your eating of beef and taking of the Sacrament. What trash you spew.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 25, 2011 3:23 pm

        Fun with If/Then statements:
        Assuming divine enlightenment exists:
        If we have never experienced pure enlightenment,
        Then we have to rely on someone else’s claim of being divinely enlightened.
        If we are searching for an enlightened teacher,
        Then we are admitting that we are wanting assistance of some sort and therefore not enlightened.
        If we are not enlightened,
        Then we are not qualified to recognize an enlightened teacher.
        If we are not able to recognize an enlightened teacher,
        Then we are probably not able to recognize an average dude that does a good job masquerading as an enlightened master
        If the average dude makes mistakes while masquerading as an enlightened master,
        Then we are able to use logic to recognize him as a fraud.
        If we are unable to recognize the fraud,
        Then we are easily taken advantage of.
        If the devotee drops the logical mind and faithfully surrenders to the fraud,
        Then the devotee makes excuses and continues to follow the fraud.

      • stupidseeker permalink
        July 30, 2011 5:28 am

        Show me one post of mine where I have made a personal refernce to my own religious beliefs.

  37. Harshal permalink
    July 22, 2011 3:40 pm

    @Meditator: saying the same thing again and again doesn’t make it right. you didnt tell me who has kicked your A** in AOL? seems like someone has, hence so much anger!

  38. 2bit permalink
    July 22, 2011 4:33 pm

    @You am I

    Still problematic…

    Let us a take a concrete example…say ghee is satvik guna, and old stale bread full of tamas….yet 5 elements are present in both. Isn’t that so? Elements and Gunas must be two different ways of atomizing the same entity from different perspectives.

    If ego causes vikriti then, all that we see is full of it…one could say all is vikriti. Doesn’t sound right. But I tend to agree that ego is indeed a factor in vikriti….rather a disintegrated ego.

    Say a healthy body cell is prakriti, and it is made of all 5 elements too. But a cancer cell can be seen as vikriti, and it has 5 elements too. But a healthy cell has ego that includes/syncs up with the whole body, while cancer has lost the memory of the whole.

    So how does it disintegrated in an organization like AOL or in an organisms like us?

    • You am I permalink
      July 22, 2011 4:50 pm

      @2bit

      I am going to conduct a course in Bangalore on this issue. 100$ per participant in August.

      please invite as many friends as you can.This exercise will sure help you in doing way with the disintegration of the ego and vikrittis 😉 ..what will remain after the worshop is pure prakriti – just like ghee 🙂

      PS: forgive me, i give as good as i get

      • 2bit permalink
        July 22, 2011 5:24 pm

        as good as you get? and how good is that?
        anyway, best luck with your course 🙂

      • You am I permalink
        July 22, 2011 5:47 pm

        @2bit

        notty notty ..you are not letting the vikriti go ! you have to get atleast 5 friends to my worship…How else would you find satwa ..the vikriti has to go ..call all of them personally ..your true self will shine once the 5 of them register for the worshop.. see the sattva is already there ..feel its presence 😉

        how good was that?

        ps:just joking

      • You am I permalink
        July 22, 2011 5:48 pm

        *workshop

        lolz (pun not intended)

  39. You am I permalink
    July 22, 2011 6:27 pm

    @SS

    If you do not know your destination, then you have to clamber onto the train with only faith in your heart, hoping that your destination will be revealed to you in time.

    Oh Pastor! don’t confuse self-realization with Abraham monotheism .. where the destination is an unverifiable after-death bed time heaven/hell story.

    In self-realization the destination is the SELF ! — how reassuring ! aiinit? ..you don;t have to die to reach the destination .you ARE the destination . cheers!

    That said, you go on to say that in the non (Hindu) faith the adherent is allowed to approach the scripture on the basis of an initial faith in the scripture i.e. in a state of unbelief and to discard it if it doesn’t “work” out for him. This very interestingly leads to a

    number of conclusions.

    hmm.. lets check out !
    1) There can be as many truths as there are scriptures since no scripture or guru will claim to be lying.

    There are many verities in this world of duality and as far as this world of duality is concerned , most of them are true . The bee sees only two color variations , while we see three … what appears black to it is true , what appears green to us is also true – the

    question to ask is do colors exist?

    if you understand the depth of my statement, therein lies the answer to the question of multiple verities .The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different

    for seekers?

    2) The devotee assesses each of these truths based his personal experience of the scripture, as you mentioned, whether or not it “works” for him.

    you got it wrong. If it does not work on the self – you discard it . as simple as that .

    like the bible says the earth is flat . end of the story ! as simple as that ..don’t waste your time flattening the great oblate spheroid – you will never succeed !

    3) Each devotee arrives at his “personalized truth” when he finds the scripture or guru or deity that works best for him.

    The entire world outside is always a personal truth for any given individual at any point of time (in your reply please quote a non-personal truth). Incidentally, in science too there’s a scientific truth for today , which may become a falsity tomorrow.. but that

    does deter millions of people from considering the scientific truth of today as the truth. same goes for the seeker . s/he may , based on her/his spiritual level treat a relative truth as the ultimate truth.

    4) Each devotee can discard one “truth” for another “truth” if his personal experience of the first ‘truth” fails him.

    very true . this is the reason why the world is divided into Christians and Hindus and Muslims and Jews and atheists and what not..All have their own truths. one’s truth is that the other is going to hell..by exclusion, all are going to hell 🙂

    5) There can be as many methods of assessment of the truth, as adherents. Thus in a group of devotees to one guru, one maybe assessing the guru on the basis of number of desires fulfilled, another maybe doing so on the basis of achievement of good

    health etc etc etc.

    Correct! ask the faith healers or baba dardnashak or baba bengalis …ignorance has no limits ..but appears as verities to the ignorant.

    Thus freedom of (non)religion, within the ambit of (non)religion of course, is carried to it’s zenith with the devotee being allowed to arrive at a “personal truth” which in his experience will be the absolute truth. Thus potentially speaking, if there are six

    billion people, there could be six billion truths since personal experience is the benchmark for deciding what is true or not, or in other words what “works” or not. Let’s now say that a long time devotee of a certain Guru, who at one considered his guru to be

    the truth, now has some unpleasant experiences with him, and decides to exchange for another. Thus one truth has now been exchanged for the other. Truly another feather in the cap for the SAS doctrine.

    going from one ignorance to other is the fate of the ignorant and it’s not the copyright of any religion- ignorance is a secular trait – for example a protestant can become a catholic can become a non-trinitarian can become a 7th day etc etc

    my friend , the beauty of ignorance is that it knows no bounds

    Then you interestingly equate making a hypothesis with the keeping of the initial faith. If I as a scientist have to choose the better drug between drug A and drug B, I begin with the hypothesis that neither is superior to the other, and then experiment to

    prove or disprove the hypothesis. I cannot keep faith in drug A over drug B or vice versa. That would be called bias.

    True, in drug development all valid compositions are given a fair chance. A rational spirit would sure read all “valid” scriptures.

    if you have faith that the earth is flat, you must read the bible .. no doubt !

    The volition between making a hypothesis and keeping faith is what separates the two essentially. Faith is merely a positive assumption as opposed to making a hypothesis which may proceed from a set of assumptions both negative and positive. I hope

    that makes the distinction clear.

    from an abrahamic perspective, i can understand your predicament with the word faith( there its the first and also the final stage ). so lets drop the word faith , and say that the first stage is a hypothesis itself ..what do you do with a hypothesis ? you test it !

    so do the same with the scriptures too.treat them as a hypothesis and test them

    Regarding my enlightenment, no one can really comment on it unless they are enlightened themselves.

    you are wrong. while it’s a skill to detect diamond , it takes no time to detect coal.

    If the “Kumare” video is anything to go by, then the mere claim to enlightenment is sufficient proof of enlightenment.

    KUmare video concludes that you are the enlightenment you seek. if you seek blessings and rewards – you end up becoming chelas of gurus..but even in that attempt , what you are essentially seeking is yourself only…it may not, however, be your Self

    How can anyone disprove someone’s claim of enlightenment any more than prove someone else’s enlightenment?

    just like you can prove that jesus was born of a virgin mother and human beings are not

    Can you prove Ramana Maharishi was enlightened and HHSSRS is not? Wasn’t Nityananda enlightened to his devotees until his romp went public? And even now, to his faithful, isn’t he still enlightened.

    let him remain enlightened for his followers. If he aint enlightened for you, that’s good enough. 4 billion people out of 6 believe in fairy tales..7 earths, 7 heavens with stars in lower heavens and moon in middle heaven, stones running away with clothes of

    prophets, moon splitting into two ..the followers of hhssrs are not even a tiny fraction of that ignorant lot.

    as i said earlier, ignorance has no limits !

    Then you say that HHSSRS claim of ensuring enlightenment by breathing is unsupported by scripture.

    yup! i did manana on the scriptural hypothesis and i found it to be correct :

    you can do that too.Just to give you an example : suppose you do breathing exercises, this will result in some experience..all experience is something that happens to the self , but is not the self ..So how can an experience bring self-realization ? in fact , the

    craving for the experience may aggravate the situation – you will try to become the “experience” and lose your “self” !

    I can only say, on the basis of your own claims, that it may be unsupported by your scripture, but not by HHSSRS’s scripture, as you yourself said that “personalized truth” is allowed in the non(Hindu) religion…err……um……collective philosophy.

    very true , Hinduism only requests you to come out of your ignorance..it does not force you to become smart today despite yourself- that would be more dangerous ..ainnit?

    And as regarding my well being as long as I have my daily swill of the “blood of Christ” and my leg of beef, I’m enlightened and the rest of the unenlightened world can go and suck a lemon.

    no beef on this one ! you are where you must be ..cheers!

    Rgds

  40. Anonymous permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:42 pm

    @You am I

    Mine is “ps:just joking”, yours is vikriti
    It is alright. I was keen on the question I posed. I don’t think you have anything to contribute to it. Although I don’t like the hateful tone of many bloggers, truth has to be somewhere in the middle.

    Perhaps your dismissive tone (unwittingly) may explain to some extent the genesis of anti-AOL blogs.

    • You am I permalink
      July 24, 2011 4:09 am

      @Anonymous

      are you @2bit ..!!?

      anyways ..if you and @2bit are the same . my answers are as witty(or unwitty) as the question.

      if you sincerely want to know , i can answer ..but then you have to ask the question in the spirit you want it to be answered

      om tat sat

  41. Harshal permalink
    July 24, 2011 5:37 pm

    “YOU ARE THE BEST PROOF.OF THE SAME”

    No you are the better proof. It is not just the spiritual practice but a combination of karma,grace and self-effort which can change a person. If you are zero in karma,grace and self-effort no spiritual practice will help you, and then you are going to doubt anyone who makes effort for the good of the samaj.

    PS: you still haven’t told me who kicked your A** in AOL.

  42. stupidseeker permalink
    July 25, 2011 3:28 pm

    @You Am I,

    I generally agree with your take on the Abrahamic religions and their stress on faith and devotion as a way of attaining to paradise. The Abrahamic texts by themselves, offer no scientific evidence of the existence of such a paradise and it’s a testimonial to the power of faith, that people still believe in the possibility of paradise, as the ultimate relief after a lifetime of faith and devotion. The texts also make it clear, that for the attainment of paradise, death of the believer is a necessary prerequisite and thus the believer during his lifetime makes no effort other than following the tenets of his scripture for his spiritual salvation. Therein, in the power of his faith lies his reassurance and his salvation.

    Now as you say, in self realization the destination is the self. Again here I won’t argue with you of course on how verifiable or unverifiable the self, itself is, for all you know it may have a huge board declaring” enlightenment station, you have arrived, please detrain”. , because obviously you have your standard protocol of, 1) faith….2) test……3) discard/imbibe and after doing all this, your conclusion obviously must have pointed to the existence of the “self”, so variously described by the (non)Hindu scriptures from being a physical entity to a metaphysical (non)entity such as being ‘indescribable” or “beyond the senses”, or “the unutterable state” etc etc etc etc etc. So now the question is, all these “enlightened beings” who “arrived” before you, are they all at the same place or did each one arrive at their own “personalized enlightenments”. Thus by extension are you going to arrive at your “personal enlightenment” or the more general compartment, type of “enlightenment”.
    Let’s take another example of spiritual reassurance for those who may have missed the “enlightenment station” while still being embodied: For instance, it is said that by simply dying in Varanasi, one may escape from the endless cycle of birth and rebirth. Thus so many million faithful, who on the verge of death, terrified of a future rebirth, make their way to Varanasi just to die there, and their bodies fuel the wood pyres that burn endlessly on the Dashashwamedha ghat while the less economically well off get a simple toss into the Ganges. How reassuring for them it must have been to have died in Banaras and thus escape from the cycle of birth and death. Thus death becomes the vehicle for them to reach their “destination” of no return.
    So now going into the main body of your responses.

    Firstly you say rationality and experience must be used to discard some of the verities just like scientists do.

    “if you understand the depth of my statement, therein lies the answer to the question of multiple verities .The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different
    for seekers?”

    Thus here you affirm that some verities are more truthful than others and thus some must be discarded i.e. some scriptures, deities or gurus, may just be old mould and so should be discarded in favor of those which may not be as mouldy using the methods of scientists i.e. rationality and experience. Thus on other words the “personalized truths” of some may be junk compared to the “personalized truths” of the other who follows a different scripture.

    To go on, you say that I am wrong in mentioning that personal experience is the benchmark for assessment of the “truth” contained in the scripture. That if it does not “work” upon the self it should be discarded. Thus there might be lots of moldy stuff that doesn’t work upon the self, right.

    For this to be true the devotee must be able to differentiate between his personal experience of the scripture/deity/guru and the effect the same is having on his “self” and be able to quantitate the effect thereof and reject it in the event of a negative diagnosis. Thus, your statement if true, the personal experience of the devotee and his “self” have now become two different things. Thus a devotee undergoing ecstasy while praying to Shiva will have to differentiate, his “personal truth” of ecstasy from the act of prayer, from the effect it may be having on the “self”, and then “work” out whether that effect is “working out” for his self or not and reject it if it is not. Phew! What a burden you place upon the simple devotee. Not for nothing did the ISKCON guys decry the NASA moon landing as a hoax because they said that the Vedas had declared the moon to be unreachable and so unreachable it was in their “personal truth”. What wonders it must have done for their “self”, one wonders.

    Then you equate science to “personalized truths”. Numerous phenomena have been so well elucidated and characterized and reproduced by science that they have ceased to become “personal truths” and have become facts. For instance, the internet, Google, iPods, mobile phones, ECG machines, mechanism of DNA replication etc etc etc etc etc. These are hardly personal truths unlike the solidification of mercury at room temperature which still remains the “personal truth” of non (Hindu) alchemists.

    I now wish to examine your other statements in the light of your claim.
    o “@stupidseeker
    1. hindu :
    first stage: shravana (faith)
    second stage: manana (reflect /test the faith)
    final stage: nidhyasana(if true. imbibe else reject)
    examples [ Advaitins, dwaitins, arya samajis etc]”

    So if the above is true the devotee approaches the scripture/deity/guru (s/d/g) with faith, then tests it and then based on his “results” discards or keeps the s/d/g. Thus if this is true then there cannot be any person who can be called spiritually ignorant. How can he be ignorant when his reflections of the s/d/g led him to imbibe the same or reject the same? How can he be ignorant when he re-reflects another and accept the same ?
    Thus when you claim that your “manana” led you to exclude breathing as a means to achieving “enlightenment” and thus reject the same, you collide headlong with those whose “manana” led them to put forth pranayama as a means of enlightenment. Thus your “manana” has led to the rejection of AOL, Siddha Yoga, Hamsa Yoga, Isha Yoga, YSS, Iyengar Yoga, Krishnamachari Yoga amongst numerous others, as being incapable of enlightenment since all rely upon pranayama to reach the ultimate. You also go on to say :

    1. “craving for the experience may aggravate the situation – you will try to become the “experience” and lose your “self” !”

    While earlier on you said:

    “The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different
    for seekers?”

    Thus if what you say is true while experience is the benchmark for discarding one s/d/g for another that very experience becomes the hindrance to gaining the “self”. Thus the devotee while he should have used his experience as the benchmark for nidhyasana he shouldn’t use the experience for nidhyasana. Verily the SAS doctrine is being stretched to its very limits, illimitable though it may be. Thus for example if someone has a bad example with AOL, he should and simultaneously should not move to another “truth” since his experience is needed but at the same time it may be deceptive and may not point to the truth.

    Then again you advise to me to test the “valid” scriptures as hypothesis first and test them and yet not use my experience to junk or accept them and yet again to use my experience to accept or junk them while yet conceding that some of them could be just old mold.

    To go on to your skill sets of differentiating between the allotropes of carbon, perhaps in your reply you could tell all how you proved that I wasn’t enlightened. I for one would be deeply interested in learning how you managed to detect the coal lump. So that might help so many millions of others who maybe just hyperventilating and be getting nowhere.

    Let’s now see another statement of yours:

    “KUmare video concludes that you are the enlightenment you seek. if you seek blessings and rewards – you end up becoming chelas of gurus..but even in that attempt , what you are essentially seeking is yourself only…it may not, however, be your Self”

    You are seeking yourself, but that yourself may not be your self because your self is not yourself. But I have claimed that myself is my self which is myself thanks to my “blood of the Christ”, and let the coal rakers now decide how black the coal is. After all isn’t “enlightenment” my birthright.

    To cut a long story short, perhaps you could resolve an issue for me, similar to the issue of how the Virgin Mary could have birthed the infant Jesus. My issue is how a lady who is the common wife of five men can maintain her virg…….err…umm…purity for the other four when after she has consummated her marriage with the first one.

    Happy ‘personalized enlightenment” , an im of to measure the depth of my “enlightenment draught”.

    • The Doctor permalink
      August 1, 2011 12:33 pm

      Bumping above comment as have only just gotten round to reading and approving.

    • You am I permalink
      August 5, 2011 10:53 am

      @stupidseeker

      I generally agree with your take on the Abrahamic religions and their stress on faith and devotion as a way of attaining to paradise. The Abrahamic texts by themselves, offer no scientific evidence of the existence of such a paradise and it’s a testimonial to the power of faith, that people still believe in the possibility of paradise, as the ultimate relief after a lifetime of faith and devotion. The texts also make it clear, that for the attainment of paradise, death of the believer is a necessary prerequisite and thus the believer during his lifetime makes no effort other than following the tenets of his scripture for his spiritual salvation. Therein, in the power of his faith lies his reassurance and his salvation.

      hmm ..you admit that the abrahamic mindset is junk but end with an emphatic yes to blind faith. i wonder why you want to discuss enlightenment at all !

      the promise of an afterlife proof seems more tenable to you! great! …how reassuring it would be if i take all your money and promise to give you twice as much after you die? ..reassurance of salvation ..lolz!

      Now as you say, in self realization the destination is the self. Again here I won’t argue with you of course on how verifiable or unverifiable the self, itself is, for all you know it may have a huge board declaring” enlightenment station, you have arrived, please detrain”. , because obviously you have your standard protocol of, 1) faith….2) test……3) discard/imbibe and after doing all this, your conclusion obviously must have pointed to the existence of the “self”, so variously described by the (non)Hindu scriptures from being a physical entity to a metaphysical (non)entity such as being ‘indescribable” or “beyond the senses”, or “the unutterable state” etc etc etc etc etc.

      I must take note of your vacillating mind .You say you wont argue and then follows your long argument.

      the truth of “self” is not variously “described” ..but variously “pointed” to. that’s the subtle difference pastor

      for example “beyond the senses” is a pointer. it is validated by the fact that people in deep sleep or coma or those who have any of their sense faculties impaired don’t cease to exist ..they still have a “self” ..this proves that the “self” is beyond the senses.

      same goes for the other pointers. the problem with stupid seekers is that they latch on to the “finger” and not to where it is pointing . (koan number? )

      entire physics is based on one fundamental metaphysical assumption that objective reality is real . also “self” is not a “metaphysical entity” .metaphysics is only a comfort for our “intellects” to somehow define “what IS”

      So now the question is, all these “enlightened beings” who “arrived” before you, are they all at the same place or did each one arrive at their own “personalized enlightenments”. Thus by extension are you going to arrive at your “personal enlightenment” or the more general compartment, type of “enlightenment”.

      another pointer : “self” is “immovable” ..Where’s the question of “arriving” “arise”?

      Let’s take another example of spiritual reassurance for those who may have missed the “enlightenment station” while still being embodied: For instance, it is said that by simply dying in Varanasi, one may escape from the endless cycle of birth and rebirth. Thus so many million faithful, who on the verge of death, terrified of a future rebirth, make their way to Varanasi just to die there, and their bodies fuel the wood pyres that burn endlessly on the Dashashwamedha ghat while the less economically well off get a simple toss into the Ganges. How reassuring for them it must have been to have died in Banaras and thus escape from the cycle of birth and death. Thus death becomes the vehicle for them to reach their “destination” of no return.

      as i said earlier, people will do and become what they seek. Christ paid the price for all your sins, so now you can sin with impunity ..plentiful fools i say. Each one becomes what they seek. by giving me one more example you are just re-iterating my point.

      So now going into the main body of your responses.

      hmm.lets see what we have


      Firstly you say rationality and experience must be used to discard some of the verities just like scientists do.

      “if you understand the depth of my statement, therein lies the answer to the question of multiple verities .The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different
      for seekers?”

      Thus here you affirm that some verities are more truthful than others and thus some must be discarded i.e. some scriptures, deities or gurus, may just be old mould and so should be discarded in favor of those which may not be as mouldy using the methods of scientists i.e. rationality and experience. Thus on other words the “personalized truths” of some may be junk compared to the “personalized truths” of the other who follows a different scripture.

      indeed that is the way of scientists and seekers .The more you seek , the more complex the business of seeking becomes. from classical physics to quantum the seeking never ends ..persons get tired or intellectually trapped and settle at whatever stage they are in after a while

      To go on, you say that I am wrong in mentioning that personal experience is the benchmark for assessment of the “truth” contained in the scripture. That if it does not “work” upon the self it should be discarded. Thus there might be lots of moldy stuff that doesn’t work upon the self, right.

      instead of “experience” read that as “realization” or “understanding” ..nothing works upon the “self” ..the “self” itself does not need to “work” ..what work must the “self” do to become “self” ???

      it’s “persons” ..who “work” to “experience” the “self” ..,and thus the never ending chase for the “person” begins

      For this to be true the devotee must be able to differentiate between his personal experience of the scripture/deity/guru and the effect the same is having on his “self” and be able to quantitate the effect thereof and reject it in the event of a negative diagnosis. Thus, your statement if true, the personal experience of the devotee and his “self” have now become two different things.

      volia! you get the point (hopefully) ..the “person” is not the “self” ! congrats!

      Thus a devotee undergoing ecstasy while praying to Shiva will have to differentiate, his “personal truth” of ecstasy from the act of prayer, from the effect it may be having on the “self”, and then “work” out whether that effect is “working out” for his self or not and reject it if it is not. Phew! What a burden you place upon the simple devotee.

      “ecstasy” is an “experience” of the “person” ..what has the “self” got to do with that?

      there’s no burden for a “self” seeker : it’s elegantly simple : in two words “Stop seeking” ! ..as simple as that !

      Not for nothing did the ISKCON guys decry the NASA moon landing as a hoax because they said that the Vedas had declared the moon to be unreachable and so unreachable it was in their “personal truth”. What wonders it must have done for their “self”, one wonders.

      I am not sure if it was ISKCON ,but Muslims and Christians did decry. There is still a chrsitian flat earth soceity and i suspect you must be a member.

      anyways, these “persons” are deluded by the “experience” or negation of it..what has this got do with the “self” ?

      Then you equate science to “personalized truths”. Numerous phenomena have been so well elucidated and characterized and reproduced by science that they have ceased to become “personal truths” and have become facts. For instance, the internet, Google, iPods, mobile phones, ECG machines, mechanism of DNA replication etc etc etc etc etc. These are hardly personal truths unlike the solidification of mercury at room temperature which still remains the “personal truth” of non (Hindu) alchemists.

      lolz ..that is nothing but collective delusion ..in a dream every dream object thinks that it is alive !

      science has moved beyond ipods ..it now realizes that time does not exist ! ..but is terrified to accept that it’s a show of consciousness..no ipod exists!..the “person” does not exist ..only the “self” is what is

      I now wish to examine your other statements in the light of your claim.
      o “@stupidseeker
      1. hindu :
      first stage: shravana (faith)
      second stage: manana (reflect /test the faith)
      final stage: nidhyasana(if true. imbibe else reject)
      examples [ Advaitins, dwaitins, arya samajis etc]”

      So if the above is true the devotee approaches the scripture/deity/guru (s/d/g) with faith, then tests it and then based on his “results” discards or keeps the s/d/g. Thus if this is true then there cannot be any person who can be called spiritually ignorant. How can he be ignorant when his reflections of the s/d/g led him to imbibe the same or reject the same? How can he be ignorant when he re-reflects another and accept the same ?

      all “persons” are ignorant, differing only in degrees ..only the “self” is devoid of ignorance

      Thus when you claim that your “manana” led you to exclude breathing as a means to achieving “enlightenment” and thus reject the same, you collide headlong with those whose “manana” led them to put forth pranayama as a means of enlightenment.

      indeed, that’s how “persons” clash with “persons”. “my” “degree” of ignorance is lessened by the application of “reason and logic” which shows that the breathing nirvana business is irrational . the breathing business survives because it wins over the dark ignorance embedded in abrahamic religions quite effectively

      “persons” will keep moving from higher ignorance levels to lower ignorance levels by the faculty of reason and logic and the other way round if they lack those faculties

      Thus your “manana” has led to the rejection of AOL, Siddha Yoga, Hamsa Yoga, Isha Yoga, YSS, Iyengar Yoga, Krishnamachari Yoga amongst numerous others, as being incapable of enlightenment since all rely upon pranayama to reach the ultimate.

      the yoga sutras themselves clearly state that pranayama and exercises do not take you to the ultimate


      You also go on to say :

      1. “craving for the experience may aggravate the situation – you will try to become the “experience” and lose your “self” !”

      While earlier on you said:

      “The rational person will discard some of these based on reason and others on experience- that’s exactly how science moves – why should it be different
      for seekers?”

      Thus if what you say is true while experience is the benchmark for discarding one s/d/g for another that very experience becomes the hindrance to gaining the “self”. Thus the devotee while he should have used his experience as the benchmark for nidhyasana he shouldn’t use the experience for nidhyasana. Verily the SAS doctrine is being stretched to its very limits, illimitable though it may be. Thus for example if someone has a bad example with AOL, he should and simultaneously should not move to another “truth” since his experience is needed but at the same time it may be deceptive and may not point to the truth.

      o pastor .this irrational assumed contradiction that you see is because you ignore my statement ..it’s not “experience” alone ..but even “reason” is to be used wherever necessary

      you are harping on experience alone as you find little merit in reason ..but that’s your problem , not mine 🙂


      Then again you advise to me to test the “valid” scriptures as hypothesis first and test them and yet not use my experience to junk or accept them and yet again to use my experience to accept or junk them while yet conceding that some of them could be just old mold.

      lolz …this is what happens when you ignore “reason” and go by plain experience..By the way , if you experience the earth is flat ..is that reasonable to say it’s indeed flat?


      To go on to your skill sets of differentiating between the allotropes of carbon, perhaps in your reply you could tell all how you proved that I wasn’t enlightened. I for one would be deeply interested in learning how you managed to detect the coal lump. So that might help so many millions of others who maybe just hyperventilating and be getting nowhere.

      a “person” who does not know the difference between “self” and “person” is pure black coal and no diamond at all!


      Let’s now see another statement of yours:

      “KUmare video concludes that you are the enlightenment you seek. if you seek blessings and rewards – you end up becoming chelas of gurus..but even in that attempt , what you are essentially seeking is yourself only…it may not, however, be your Self”

      You are seeking yourself, but that yourself may not be your self because your self is not yourself. But I have claimed that myself is my self which is myself thanks to my “blood of the Christ”, and let the coal rakers now decide how black the coal is. After all isn’t “enlightenment” my birthright.

      your “self” is not your “person” ..as long as you take your “person” to be your “self” , your self will appear to be your person ..so the personal idea of self personalizes the self ..what kind of a person would achieve the self with such deluded personification of the impersonal self???

      To cut a long story short, perhaps you could resolve an issue for me, similar to the issue of how the Virgin Mary could have birthed the infant Jesus.

      sure, get a lady engaged to some joseph dude and see how baby lords come out every 9 months

      My issue is how a lady who is the common wife of five men can maintain her virg…….err…umm…purity for the other four when after she has consummated her marriage with the first one.

      if you read the mahabarata itihaas ..all thsoe five men are none other than one single cosmic deity as per the story and hence all these part incarnations get wedded to the same consort else it would be adultery 🙂

      see..as clear as that ..it;s not like the revered Lot the letch who slept with his own daughter


      Happy ‘personalized enlightenment” , an im of to measure the depth of my “enlightenment draught”.

      personalized enlightenment !!?? that sums up your ignorance 🙂

  43. stupidseeker permalink
    July 30, 2011 3:06 pm

    Dear All,

    Just came across this video of MMY. Observe him especially from 0.20 – 0.23 and you might be reminded of someone very significant to you. Listen also to his “hmmm” at 0.37.

    Regards
    SS

  44. Mahy permalink
    August 2, 2011 3:53 am

    Read the book Iam That – conversations with Nisargadatta Maharaj and Advaita Master. Will clear all your doubts

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