The Truth Hurts – Part 1
Many times on this blog I have raised the question as to why the Sudarhan Kriya tape works just as well whether a teacher is present or not. This is one of the first things we were taught in Art of Living, that a teacher needs to be present in order for the “Guru’s Grace” to flow through them and into the participants. Most recently, I posed the question again to drpetersutphen (Peter), however for the most part he evaded the question completely and when he finally responded “in passing”, his reply was wholly unsatisfactory. The following is a summary of much of this interchange and my own response to Peter.
drpetersutphen, May 17, 2012 2:42 am
Look, I’m not trying to insult you, but I find this question to be really strange. Why wouldn’t it work? Who said it wouldn’t work? Did SSRS say this? Did you hear him say it? Did a reliable source hear him say it? What exactly did he say? Until I know for sure SSRS said this, I won’t even think about it.
@Peter, I raised this with you around a week ago now in this comment and you still haven’t responded to it directly.
A few days later when you posted under a different pseudonym, I then left you this comment, to which you replied “I will get back to you regarding the tape issue. Much of my responding or not has to do with time issues.”
Ok, but since I posted it, you have left 9 separate comments, but have yet to reply to me directly. You have vaguely replied in your above reponse to VSS, but frankly this is the most unconvincing and feeble response I have seen yet on this blog, and in actual fact it shows that you are clearly LYING. Let me tell you exactly why.
There is nothing in what I’ve quoted above which you couldn’t have written in response to my original comment there and then. You could have told me the exact same thing, it needen’t have taken you a whole week to come up with this. Are you trying to tell me you had to go away and think about this as if it was something you didn’t know at the time? And when you have been so forthcoming with comments in the past and have left so many comments since? No Peter, you were simply evading the question and please don’t try to deny it.
You know fine well just as everyone else here and everyone who is associated with Art of Living knows because it is the first thing we were all told at the end of the Part 1 course, THE KRIYA TAPE DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT A TEACHER PRESENT. This is a FACT, and don’t try to bury your head in the sand and pretend you have never heard this before. If you’ve really been in Art of Living as long as you claim you have, you know this to be true so please don’t insult my intelligence or anyone else’s here.
You have tried to evade this question just as you evaded the question posed to you on Debunking Guruji’s Grace – Part 2. You know full well that all these things PROVE BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT much of what we have been saying throughout these blogs about AoL and RS, but your mind has been so conditioned by the brainwashing that goes on in AoL that you would choose to live in denial of the facts than to face them.
But rest assured Peter, you are not alone. It is painful to face the truth in this way, and most who have come before you have reacted in a very similar manner. They just can’t accept the facts on this blog, and would rather live in complete denial by lying to themselves and lying to everyone else around them in order to preserve their existing beliefs. Which is exactly what you are doing here.
You would rather believe that RS is an “enlightened master”, as you recently told us – otherwise you wouldn’t follow him, right? – than the person we have shown him to be on this blog, someone who is a far cry from being enlightened. You would rather believe he cured you of a terminal illness than that it was just your own faith in him that cured you. There is so much evidence on these blogs against these things, and I have this to you directly yet you have deliberately ignored it all. Why? Becuase you know that this evidence will completely destroy your reality for ever, and this isn’t something you are prepared to give up.
So you accept the lies instead, because they are far more comforting and they protect your reality bubble from bursting. But worse than that, you outright deny the evidence which shows that you are wrong, evidence which you yourself asked for and which we happily gave to you. Why even ask for it if you were just going to deny it? I think I’ve already answered that adequately above.
But there is one more thing I have to say, and I will be brutally honest and blunt here. There is a massive incongruency between what you’ve told us about yourself and your behaviour on this blog. You’ve told us that you’ve been meditating for around 40 years (correct me if I’m wrong) and that you’re on some sort of spritiual journey towards “enlightenment”. That’s all very well, but from everything you’ve written, you don’t seem to be any more “spiritually evolved” than the majority of people I know, most of whom aren’t on any spiritual path. In fact in so many ways I would say you’ve behaved in a very immature manner indeed. For instance posting under different pseudonyms and outright taunting people who don’t agree with you (e.g. VSS), whilst at the same time trying to make out that you’re a really nice guy – which just seems quite fake indeed.
So this really begs the question, is any of this really working for you at all? Is it achieving any of the desired results? From what I’ve seen, I would say almost definitely not. This leads us to the further question, is this what happens to everyone who spends as long as you have with Art of Living? I think I already know the answer to that.
Beyond The Art of Living 
@AOLites
Do not hide yourself for enjoying entertainment within the AOL.
Dont play with urself avoiding the Truth.
I believe all human beings are enlightened, may be the degree of awareness varies.
I would also add that the poster is also enlightened but I fail to understand why is the poster bent upon belittling Sri Sri.
He may have thousands shortcomings, but the fact remains that he has been attempting to do something noble which very few have done.
If somebody denies this, I would dare the person to attempt and do something similar and then speak.
Most of the time we just see flaws in others but forget to peep within.
Dear blogger, I have most respect for you too, also and it is out of compassion for you, you actually being a peaceful soul, I would like to suggest that drop this hatred for this hatred is causing you agony and pain. Lets pure love flow through you for that is your true nature.
Even if you feel something is wrong, try to think over what is right and suggest an alternative before you speak of indicating something as wrong.
May God bless you and give you peace and happiness.
@ Uttam [May 17, 2012 12:30 pm]
If you have Mr. Ravi Shankar’s email address, could you please email him on my behalf and ask him to lead the way by dropping his hatred for Skywalker and Kilm and withdraw the case in court — being the Guru?
Please let us all know what he says by posting his reply. I mean this very, very seriously.
Let’s try to resolve this conflict and build the bridges of peace and tolerance.
In case you feel closer to Bawa, you could send the same request to his email address — which is khurshed@gmail.com.
Many thanks in advance … hope you will not waste a moment in sending this email …
Am waiting eagerly to know what he / they have to say …
Yes, VSS. Good advice to Uttam. Perfect example of who is the hateful person/people in this case.
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 2:12 pm]
Let’s give this email a chance — let Uttam let us know what he / they say. If Mr. Ravi Shankar and AoL lead by example, then it’s a good thing. They will exhibit their commitment to peace and tolerance. If not… we’ll know…
@VSS: I do not know Sri Sri or Bawa personally. I am a very ordinary person who has done Part-1, 2 and DSN, Ashtawakra Gita and found a great value, a lot of benefit in them.
Yes, I agree that the same medicine may not do good for all but I am convinced that this is doing good for majority.
I empathize with who have had not a good experience and would like to suggest that there are many more different schools for spirituality, try one of those and see which suits you. You may try GMCKS.
Forgive others, seek for forgiveness and move on in life. Let us judge others for we do not even know ourselves, forget about knowing others.
Law of karma is not biased, it always completes its cycle. So forget about mistakes of others that you perceive so that at least you can grow spiritually. May God bless all.
I meant to write:
“Lets NOT judge others”
in the post above. Missed writing “NOT”
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 12:30 am] + [May 18, 2012 12:48 am]
1. Supposing a movie critic does not like the way Yash Chopra directs a movie, according to you, does the movie critic have the right to say the following?
>> Yash Chopra knows how to make money but not movies.
>> Yash Chopra is a senseless director who fools audiences.
>> A Yash Chopra movie is a waste of time and money
2. You say you are an “ordinary” person and do not know your Guru personally.
Has someone in AoL told you that you cannot write an email to Mr. Ravi Shankar because you are an “ordinary” person and do not know him “personally” —
OR
Are you just assuming this?
3. Have you seen this interview?
http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/178276/lokpal-not-a-cure-of-all-the-ills-sri-sri-ravi-shankar.html
What are your thoughts about Mr. Ravi Shankar after watching this interview?
@VSS: Watched the interview. Its fine. Are you referring to coexistence of spiritualism and materialism? I guess the clarification is okay.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 8:58 am]
Yeah. I have no issues with the clarification offered. It’s okay.
I want to know what you think about the comments made by Mr. Ravi Shankar about Ms. Aruna Roy. (around the 14th minute of the interview)
Do you think Mr. Ravi Shankar had a right to make those comments?
I think he did. But I want to know what you think. Could you share why you think he had the right to or why you think he didn’t have the right to make those comments?
And, thank you for taking the time to see the interview. Appreciate it.
He said that people with prejudice have no right to be in NAC. The intent seems that people in responsible position like NAC should not have prejudice against anybody, should be open and broad minded and be able to take people from all walks of life together. Seems valid from this perspective. Now if you change the perspective, the opinion also changes.
People in NAC/NCPRI felt that the issue of lokpal was hijacked by IAC. Now which is more important, “X” who brings the issue of lokpal or “the issue of lokpal itself”? Personal ego should not come in between issues of larger public interest.
I would emphasize that all of us have very big responsibilities and goals. Let us not have the dark clouds of doubt, suspicion, anger, hatred hide the bigger objective in our life. Where there is a group of people, a society, difference of opinion is bound to be there. But let us not get hooked to just this else we do not move forward.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 9:57 am]
Thank you for your earnest response. I appreciate it.
It seems to me that you think Mr. Ravi Shankar has the right to express his perspective on national television about anyone and anything — even if he doesn’t agree with that anyone or anything.
Since the interview was live, he was not reading from a pre-approved script.
He was criticizing someone spontaneously which is his right.
I think it is his right. I don’t think he was doing anything illegal.
Do you also think it is his right and he was not doing anything illegal?
Do you think his right to criticize is guaranteed by the Constitution of India under the section on Fundamental Rights — as also recommended in the United Nations Charter on Human Rights?
I think it is. But could you please share what you think?
Dear VSS, I meant just what I wrote, not what you and others may like to infer. One word of advice /suggestion:
A person who is obsessed is entangled in a web. Continual rejection or repression is also obsession, in denial, and hence a person who continuously rejects something or somebody is also entangled in a web.
Somehow I feed that you are also entangled in the web of AoL/HHSSRS 🙂
Free yourself and you would find the world as very beautiful and charming. AoL(HHSSRS) is not the end of the world if you don’t like it, just ignore it and move on. We are fortunate to be educated with power of reasoning. Lets see what good we can do, what value we can provide to the population, to the society.
Just criticizing decreases our intellect and intuition. We harm just ourselves by criticizing others and arguing.
Retrospect with a cool mind, preferably after some meditation and you would understand what I am implying. Do not hold on to language for it is deceitful as the speaker may not be proficient in the language. Many a times it has dual meaning. Rather try to understand the intent of the speaker through intuition and you would get what is implied.
May God bless.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 12:08 pm]
Thank you for your response. Appreciate it.
My question is simple. Please don’t get confused.
Do you believe in the freedom of speech and expression mentioned in the Fundamental Rights section of the Constitution of India?
I do.
I am wondering if you do too. A simple yes or no answer would do.
@VSS: Everybody has the freedom of speech including you and me. But with this freedom lies the responsibility of increasing positivity and refrain from speech which may be provocative, detrimental, untrue or harmful in the greater interest of mankind.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 12:29 pm]
Thank you for your reply. Appreciate it.
Who do you think can judge if the freedom of speech and expression has been exercised without responsibility and with the intention to harm mankind?
A judge who is empowered to do so or anyone?
@VSS: None other than the individual’s consciousness has to be the judge.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 11:29 pm]
Thank you for reply. I appreciate your effort.
You are absolutely wrong.
In India, only an empowered judge (if petitioned by someone to adjudicate) can JUDGE if the Freedom of Speech and Expression as guaranteed by the Constitution in India to all Indian Citizens has been exercised without responsibility and with the intention to harm mankind.
Further, in the United States of America, only and empowered judge (if petitioned by someone to adjudicate) can JUDGE if the Freedom of Speech and Expression as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America to all American Citizens has been exercised without responsibility and with the intention of harm to mankind.
Even further, Mr. Ravi Shankar took this blog to court in the United States of America and asked an empowered Judge to JUDGE if this blog in any way violates the Freedom of Speech and Expression as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States by exercising it without responsibility and with the intention to harm mankind.
Mr. Ravi Shankar, in fact, accused this blog of DEFAMATION — by the owner of this blog and third party authors who also post on this blog.
However, the DEFAMATION CHARGE WAS DISMISSED BY AN EMPOWERED JUDGE.
Therefore, THIS BLOG REMAINS AND SHALL REMAIN BECAUSE OF THE JUDGMENT OF A JUDGE. The Judge is an empowered subject matter expert on the violation of laws, and, therefore, empowered to judge.
INDIVIDUALS DO NOT JUDGE.
EMPOWERED JUDGES JUDGE.
Whatever individuals express is merely an opinion or a perspective.
It is not a judgment.
Judgment is what is contained in legal orders passed by an empowered Judge. Law-abiding citizens respect legal orders so that law and order may prevail.
If you are a law-abiding citizen, kindly respect the judgment of the Judge with regard to this blog and the rights of blog owners and third party authors.
No one who is posting anything critical of AoL on this blog is doing anything which is not legal by right — this matter has already been judged by an empowered Judge.
The Judge found NO MERIT in the argument of Mr. Ravi Shankar, expressed through his lawyers, in the claim that this blog should be shut down because of the form or manner of criticism expressed on this blog by the blog owner or third party authors.
The Judge found NO MERIT in the argument of Mr. Ravi Shankar, expressed through his lawyers, in the claim that the blog owner or third party authors were doing anything out of bad intentions such as harming mankind.
These are facts — irrefutable and indisputable facts.
Whoever it is that has led you to believe that —
>>None other than the individual’s consciousness has to be the judge.<> May 11, 2012 10:09 am
If, after reading, you still think that those posting on this blog are not doing so by right — guaranteed by the Constitutions of their respective countries — then I’m afraid I have nothing more to add to this discussion.
Thank you for your time. It was good to talk to you. I wish you true knowledge which is based on irrefutable and indisputable facts.
I understood you point VSS. Now request you and your friends answer few of my questions:
Do you and all here agree that corruption has increased globally and there has been a drop in ethical values? Just Yes or no is fine.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 11:29 pm]
My comment above has got posted incorrectly.
The following part is missing from it:
After quoting you, I’d said that whoever has led you to believe that “an individual’s consciousness has to be the judge” is wrong.
I’d also requested you to read The Doctor’s comment dated May 11 (10:09 am) — and especially the pdf he has linked all readers to.
This is on the Blogger Flicks Copyright thread on this blog.
@ Uttam [May 19, 2012 5:30 am]
No.
Cynical people think what you’re saying. Cynical people don’t usually think based on facts. They usually have a very NEGATIVE VIEW of the world.
Are you cynical, Uttam ?
If you are, then I’d like to inform you that there was far greater corruption and far less awareness of ethical values during other phases in world history.
Kindly read world history on the internet. World history is beyond the scope of this blog but not beyond the scope of the internet.
I majored is History from one of the best History Departments in India. My knowledge is based on irrefutable and indisputable facts — not on perceptions or perspectives — I have studied primary sources.
However, I must add that I speak for myself alone. None of my friends post on this blog. I don’t know anyone who posts on this blog.
Kindly do not imply that people who post on this blog are a team — we’re not — we’re just individuals who do not know each other — we don’t have the same views on AoL either — so please do not unnecessarily imply something that is not true. It’s a humble request.
@VSS: Appreciate you views. It is clarified that no implications were intended which again is subject to inference.
The fact remains that corruption off late has increased for which the whole country is crying. At least the people feel that it has. It is also felt that spirituality has also declined. This is again a perception, not a statement based on facts and figures.
My main point was the following:
With the kind of knowledgeable people that we have on this forum, can we not think of doing and discussing something constructive which shows way to people to be a better person in the society.
People coming to this site by chance face the risk of getting disillusioned by spirituality totally. Would it not be good to show them an alternative instead of leaving them directionless at the crossroad?
The energy we are spending here could have been better utilized.
@ Uttam [May 19, 2012 7:43 am]
Thank you for your reply. Appreciate it.
I’m extremely sorry to say this but I detect an extreme level of cynicism in you based on extremely negative perceptions of human beings.
You gotta have more faith in people and spirituality, dude!
Seriously. Not kidding.
Do you realize the implications of what you are saying?
If all blogs on the internet were based on “perceived risks” to people who land up on blogs “by chance”, then all blogs on the internet would need to be deleted.
Please have more faith in God. Please have more faith in religion. Please have more faith in human beings. Please have more faith in the existence of the spiritual instinct in every human being. I can assure you that it is not dependent on any blog on the internet. I request you not to jump to these random conclusions.
Do you realize how bizarre you sound?
You’re making a judgment about people who might visit this blog by chance.
If you’re going to proceed with such disastrous and damaging perceptions about people and not have faith in the innate intelligence of human beings, then not even God will be able to help you.
Tell me something.
When people read the review of one of the millions and millions of movies in the world, do they get disillusioned and stop watching movies?
There are millions and millions of NGOs in the world.
There are millions and millions of blogs critiquing them.
Relax. Let people be. You be free. Let them be free.
As for energy, it is again your perception based on your personal experience, not an irrefutable fact.
If you don’t like to waste energy in reading or posting on this blog, it’s completely your call.
However, if you assume that the experience of posting on this blog is the same for everyone, then you are simply mistaken. Every individual is different. Every individual is free to post or not to post.
Do what your heart says. And, let others do what their heart says.
How can I or anyone else live by what your heart says?
That’s an extremely unreasonable expectation, dude!
You gotta live and let live. IMHO.
And, try to have faith in the people of India. Did you see what happened in U.P. ? The Congress lost because of its many failures at the Centre and all the corruption charges. I request you to trust the Indian voter.
Please also trust all the great luminaries who wrote the Constitution of India. Do you know that India is the largest thriving democratic nation in the world?
There is no need to have such a cynical and negative perception of India and the whole world and all human beings. I’m sorry but your perceptions are just not based on irrefutable facts.
Seriously. There is too much negative energy in your perceptions. I wish you lots and lots of faith in the universe. It’s beautiful. Life’s lovely. It’s a ravishing and inspiring experience. I love being an Indian. And, I love being a human being. I love progress and evolution and I have studied it. It is very real — not a perception.
Can you imagine — just a few years ago — we would not have been able to have this conversation? We’ve never met. You don’t even know my name. We might be living miles away from each other. Still, we are in a conversation. What else is the internet — but a modern day miracle?
So, please don’t be cynical. Freedom is a gift. Free speech and expression are gifts. Let’s not judge people for what they do with their gifts. Let’s not mess with the freedom of thought of others. You are free to think. So am I. So are others. We’re all equals — free to do what our hearts tell us to do — within the constraints of the laws of our respective countries.
I’m not breaking the law. You’re not breaking the law.
Where’s the problem? There’s no problemo. IMHO.
@Uttam,
You also sound like a sincere and decent fellow. But why do you feel that people should not tell the truth of their direct experiences with Art of Living and your Guru, Ravi Shankar? Truth will out eventually. And if you read enough in these blogs, you will find that it is not these people belittling Ravi Shankar, so much as complaining about how he and Art of Living belittled them! Of all the people I have met in this world, the strangest, cruelest and most self-centered people have been in Art of Living. And one of the meanest people I have ever encountered is your Guru. He does not forgive. He never apologizes when he has really harmed someone. He never admits it. He simply denies it and makes up twisted story about the person he dislikes, and does his best to belittle them to their friends and family if possible. It is his own hatred towards me and others that has caused me to post here on occasion, and I’m sure for others as well. Ravi Shankar is not a nice man. Read the blog.
Uttam, please do yourself a favor and read this entire blog and then comment. Also, I didn’t see any hatred in Doctor’s post. JGD
@ Jr. [May 17, 2012 3:16 pm]
There’s indeed no hatred in Doc’s post. However, we can’t escape from the fact that Uttam is PERCEIVING hatred. His perception can change if he reads more posts — but only if he experiences empathy and compassion for others. If he doesn’t, then only a personal experience of AoL’s lack of empathy and compassion can change his perception. IMHO.
The Man (RS) is a mean manipulator. His Ambitions are boundless, not his love/ compassion for people. He has some siddhis yes, like reading people’s minds and he uses this to twist information for his own benefit. I have a suggestion for all, please attend this mans satsang and make sure you mentally question him about things like his Qualification, noble prize failures, SK and now Shakthi drops. You may also express mentally how much you love this guy and then see Who Will Be Eaten Up BY Their Own Mind 🙂
@Anonymous – It is not enough to state your opinion that SSRS is this or that if you want to convince someone. Better to simply offer the facts and let us decide for ourselves if we should reach the same conclusions as you. So far, you have only offerred vague references to your own negative perceptions and life challenges.
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 3:36 pm]
Please continue to express your opinion and insights and suggestions. It’s a free world. Everyone should be free to express themselves. This is good for the freedom of expression and the freedom of expression is good for mankind — IMHO and in the opinion of all those who have relentlessly fought for the freedom of expression. Besides, in the case of AoL Vs Skywalker, an empowered Judge has already ruled in favour of this blog. So, once again, please feel free to express yourself. Am looking forward to reading more comments from you.
With all due respect to everyone`s opinion: Maybe some of the ones in SSRS inner circle could explain to Guruji that this blog is working as a therapeutic tool to hundreds of people whom are even today suffering from the Traumatic Post Stress caused by our experiences with AOL? Would he prefer us to go out there and start sueing AOL globally, going to the Human Right`s defensors to claim and sharing his laundry with the press internationally? Maybe we should close this blog and start moving as a global group of victims and start sueing legally for the damages? AOL is well known for being integrated by mid-upper social class everywhere, does he want those same social group -and their families- to start claiming legally? I developed agarophobia after my ttc training and haven´t been able to walk 10 blocks away from my home without panicking for the last 6 years. During one of those trainings in Banghalore the presssure was so much that I had a silent heart episode -discovered by the doctors at my return-. Regarding work I had to leave my job and find another one for less hours, two blocks away from home, and of course for less, less money, while paying a therapist to work on my agarophobia. I`ve got hundreds of witnesses that can testify about my perfect mental health before going to Banghalore. Long ago when I got convinced to to the TTC1 in India I shared my concern of being money-short, and I was told “If you take care of Gurudev, Gurudev will take care of your job for you”. Hahahha! Not only that never happened but my financial situation got really sensitive after my return and even today. Many of the countries from where we all are have a very financially strong Catholic churchs that would gladly hire the most competitive international lawyers to represent us, just to see this and other cults to fall apart. This blog is still pretty private to AOL`s benefit… maybe we should really go public? Why should Klim or Skywalker be refrained from their/our freedom of speach, while AOL continues to enjoy their “freedom to cheat people”? We never wanted this blog to exist, we were cheated and abused in our good faith, and stil we are keeping a really low profile. Last, if SSRS had built an Ashram in the US -of course, he is very clever, so he did it in Canada instead- he would have been investigated by many American agencies by now, just like Rajneesh (Osho), or even more! for Osho displayed a plain to see challenging attitude , while SSRS and his inner circle many times are wolves in disguise. Does he really believe this blog is the worst thing it can happen to AOL? Feel free my friends to edit/delete my posting if you prefer, I`ll be okay for as long as someone reads it.
@Anonymous, I am really sorry to hear about your experiences, they sound dreadful. If you wish to share any of your story in more detail, you may email me on doctorfrombeyond@yahoo.com and I will happily publish as a separate post. Don’t feel you need to however, only do so if you want to.
Regarding your idea about making this blog “more public”, it would be great if we could do that. I had similar thoughts over a year ago but never got round to actually doing anything about them for various reasons. Any thoughts and suggestions in this area will be greatly welcomed and we can discuss them in detail.
If someone has video creating skills, Youtube is a great way to reach out to people. Thousands are going to search Art of Living on Youtube, and they will stumble upon videos. Perhaps the videos could just be words on a screen while someone does a voice over. Any one of the published posts and maybe some responses to it, could be made into a video.
@doctorfrombeyond@yahoo.com- I am going to send you lots of spam now…enjoy 🙂
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 4:19 pm]
Truly sorry to hear about your painful experiences and their devastating impact.
I feel sorry for the problem faced by you and I feel that I can guess the cause of the problem. You might have had kundalini syndrome.
Spiritual path needs to be tread cautiously, not hurriedly. Many a times, higher spiritual practices require some prerequisites to be completed. Being hollow and empty and total surrender to the master becomes very essential in any spiritual school for higher growth.
I can guess that a person who has not done Part-2 thoroughly and has not correctly experienced “hollow and empty” and “surrender to the divine/master” might encounter problems if higher classes like TTC is attempted.
If it is kundalini syndrome, it is curable, more effective by a knowledgeable master.
Hope this helps and may God bless you.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 8:04 am]
What is the kundalini syndrome?
Uttam,
Does this kundalini syndrome then explain the erratic, abusive, mentally ill behavior of some of the senior most teachers who have been with RS for years and years? The fact is that the organization is rotten. The ‘master’ has fallen, and any siddhis he has are being rapidly depleted. Just as Ravana had many followers impressed with his abilities, feeling great around him, so can anyone who does that much puja who is then rewarded by Siva for their efforts. But when they use these things to hurt others, that effect will bounce back to them, if not now, later. Karma. You know this. You admit you don’t know much about Ravi Shankar. Then go read the blog first, and find out! He is not a good man. He is a false guru. What you are feeling, the elation, is just a temporary high. If you don’t understand the process at all, read the Srimad Bhagavatam, to know that it is possible for an unenlightened person to attain siddhis that give them great power over others. This is all that is happening to you. You will keep giving your life and money, thinking it’s all fine, until you figure this out. You are contributing to really bad behavior when you give to Art of Living and Ravi Shankar.
You may also consider consulting an experienced Pranic Healer to help you regarding your problem.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 8:09 am]
Have you suffered from the kundalini syndrome and been helped by an experienced Pranic healer?
What happened to you and how did the Pranic healer resolve the problems you were facing?
I never faced any problem but learnt about kundalini syndrome while attending few courses of pranic healing.
All spiritual practices also affect the energy level in various chakras and this etherial energy also influences the physical body as well as the mind.
Pranic healing helps in curing the body/mind by cleaning/energizing the energy body around the person.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 8:49 am]
Thank you for your earnest answer. Appreciate it.
I thought you might be speaking from personal experience. I understand now that you “learnt about kundalini syndrome while attending few courses of pranic healing”.
In your earlier message, you mentioned the following:
>> I can guess that a person who has not done Part-2 thoroughly and has not correctly experienced “hollow and empty” and “surrender to the divine/master” might encounter problems if higher classes like TTC is attempted. <<
What other problems are you aware of other than the kundalini syndrome that can be caused if a person "has not experienced — hollow and empty — correctly" ?
In other words, based on your knowledge, what are the obstacles that prevent the experience of "hollow and empty" correctly?
I may not be authoritative or knowledgeable to answer your question but one thing that comes to mind that if one is not empty and surrendered, then knowledge imparted to the person would simply overflow.
The person would start interpreting the teaching with his intellect/mind instead of understanding the essence from the heart.
When you put a yellow glass, everything appears jaundiced, hence it becomes imperative to clean the glass, or rather throw away the glasses, become empty of all prejudice, notions, assumptions or expectations, having full faith, having fully surrendered.
@ Uttam [May 18, 2012 10:16 am]
Thank you for your response. Appreciate it.
Do you mean that other than the kundalini syndrome, you are not aware of any other syndromes that people might face if they haven’t surrendered fully?
In other words, are you aware of any other syndromes that might afflict a person if they haven’t surrendered fully?
Is it possible for you to find out about the other syndromes from your sources?
Dear Anonymous, God Bless You. You will recover from this horror that has happened to you. Really, you will. I’ve seen other people in AOL who were disturbed in the same way as you say you were, and were frightened to leave home, having nightmares, etc., who were previously normal people before AOL. You must keep trying, pray to God. God will help you. True saints will help you. Everyone is not a con man. Have faith that God let you leave, now God will somehow assist you. Peace.
I’m sorry to hear your story. Did you approach any of really senior teacher? did you tell Guruji ? If no, first do that. If yes,what did he suggest ?
Uttam has a point. U will find the way if you think in that line..First surrender and contact Guruji.
@ sadhana [May 29, 2012 6:32 pm]
“First surrender and contact Guruji.”
What exactly do you mean by the word “surrender” ?
Are you recommending this to all those who have had problems with AoL — that they should first surrender ?
Unbelievable!
SK is not working for you, dear Sadhana. And, nor is AoL. No one should surrender to anyone. Not ever. It seems that you have surrendered your mind to Mr. Ravi Shankar and AoL. I so wish you could see that you’ve been reduced to a puppet. I can see now why you can’t accept my perspective as a valid one. You’re in a lot of trouble. Take care.
Thank you very much, guys, you´ve got no idea of the tremendous relief this blog brought to my life. I couldn´t give much more details because the things that happened would easily identify me, and I still need a couple of things to happen before affording that. Now, on the other hand: if there was any legal attempt to refrain our rights to express freely on this blog, I will for sure be presenting charges and going public big time. Just a couple of profiles (one on Facebook, another on Twitter) with a good attractive title will help to spread the popularity of this great blog. Last, I thank the Divine because despite of the psicological/finantial damages my soul stand and didn´t allow them to brake my spiritual values… and then you all emerged gradually, confirming that nobody is alone. Namaste!
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 7:25 pm]
This blog helped me immensely too. I needed rational evidence of what my instincts were telling me and I found it. My mind had almost turned to dust. Indeed, “nobody is alone”. I am certain that this blog will rescue many more.
@Anon 7:25 pm May 17. I know your feeling of relief at leaving, and your fear of being discovered by AOL or RS. There are also many things that would identify me, and so I post generally. I’m grateful to the Divine that I also was able to pick up the pieces of my life, and continue in my spiritual journey. In fact, I’ve grown much more since leaving AOL. It and RS were holding back that growth. I hope you didn’t waste too much of your life with him, and my prayers are with you, whomever you are! It’s wonderful to see how this room is saving people. When I left, there was no blog, no support, only bashing and hatred coming from all sides AOL and RS. It was truly horrible. But I lived. Congratulations on your ‘clean break’ and my namaste to you and this blog and it’s brave owners!
Thank you so much, Anon… ¿is it possible that we know each other; ¿don´t we have a common friend who also left AOL and now is an underground actor????
— There is nothing in what I’ve quoted above which you couldn’t have written in response to my original comment there and then. You could have told me the exact same thing, it needen’t have taken you a whole week to come up with this.
It appears that it took a week for his AOL advisers to come up with this reply. If it was his own reply he would have replied it one week back,. But his advisers seem to have taken a long time, to answer this difficult question.
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 7:57 pm]
It’s truly baffling why it took a week for him to come up with an answer. It’s very possible that others were consulted — in order to arrive at a combined perception of a fitting response — even though the response is anything but fitting.
Whatever it is, I hope that after this post, there will be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the SK tape works without a teacher and that people are deliberately deceived when they are told it does not. And, there can be no justification for this deception.
You guys have to drop this silly notion that I am consulting other people regarding questions asked of me. I know I’m not, so the assertions that I am strike me as rather absurd and bordering on the paranoid.
@ Anonymous [May 17, 2012 7:57 pm]
If there is a strategy — it is to discredit human beings by getting personal and questioning their minds — this is evident from the vehement adherence to it in virtually all arguments expressing AoL’s perspective on this blog. (I have, of course, also seen how this technique is deployed very, very, very closely.)
I would call it as the “SOMEHOW-LABEL-THEM-A-BLUE-STAR TECHNIQUE”. Anyone currently in AoL, who is reading this blog, is being told — in other words — that if they speak and say anything that is even remotely critical of AoL, they will be labeled “BLUE STARS” with words like “rather absurd” and “bordering on the paranoid”.
Whether AoL is doing this consciously or those who express AoL’s perspective have been indoctrinated enough to be able to do this spontaneously, is to be seen. Time will tell.
Further, if this was not the case, then those who express AoL’s perspective would simply refrain from all such personal attacks and post completely issue-based responses. They wouldn’t be so fickle as to heckle.
@Doctor,I do have a life outside of this blog! Also, the cosmic mind would not let me post in response to you! ;-). You say I’m clearly lying? I’m glad you have such insight into my psyche! I took my Part 1 course over 20 years ago. If “they” said the SK tape doesn’t work without a teacher present I have absolutely no memory of it. But I do know there was no comment about “grace flowing” through a teacher. I believe I would have remembered that! Outside of my basic course, I have never heard anyone say anything about the SK tape. I assumed the comments regarding the SK tape “not working” without a teacher present were generated from the posting on this blog by Skywalker of the long SK tape. Apparently I was incorrect regarding the source of these questions. My response to VSS assumed that a claim was made previously that SSRS had allegedly made a comment regarding the posting of the SK tape on this blog “not working” without a teacher present. This assumption of mine, I now realize, was incorrect.
In your original “ire-free” post posing this question you asked me to answer the question of how could the “teacher-absent” SK work for you. My answer is: I don’t know. How could I know? That is a question for SSRS. Maybe people are told this on the basic course so they don’t do SK too long on their own. While this bothers you, and I’m not being sarcastic here nor trying to dismiss your concern, it doesn’t bother me. Guru’s can say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why they say certain things and the effect that is intended is not necessarily obvious.
I also hold concepts lightly. By this I mean that if I hear or read something that SSRS has said and it does not make sense, to a greater or lesser degree, to me, I neither reject it nor accept it; I put it aside, so to speak, and ponder it from time to time to see if I can make further sense of it. I do this with all spiritual teachings. I don’t introject any spiritual dogma. As MMY used to say, I want to “own” the knowledge. I want to truly understand it, not simply parrot it.
Okay, I think that’s it. Don’t call me a liar. It’s not nice. I work under the assumption that everyone posting here is being honest to their own experience. I assume you are too, Doctor. Please grant me the same courtesy.
I was also told by more than one teacher that the tape will not work if it is not done by an AOL teacher. I was also told we “were receiving grace” from the tape and the teacher. It’s quite common for AOL members to hear this, and I wasn’t in the true inner circle. The point is, the whole grace thing is not true. The tape or recording has the same effect for everyone.
Maybe the basic course is different in some aspects than it was 20 years ago. Maybe what is spoken in courses vary from country to country. All I know is that the metaphysics of the SK tape and the presence or not of an AOL teacher was not overtly discussed in my basic course, but it was 20 years and I could have forgotten a lot! I just don’t hear the term “grace” being overtly discussed that much in my experience here in South Florida with AOL.
@Doctor Petersutphen
So far, when I read posts from Doctorfrombeyond (DFB from now on) I feel they are direct and to the point.
As regards your postingsthey are never direct and to the point under discussion. The posts tend to be roundabout, elusive, and evasive .
Docto Peter, you have still NOT ANSWERED any of DFB’s direct questions to you.
If you look at your response above….you VEER away COMPLETELY from the direct questions and turn it into an emotional angle. “Oh…..are you calling me liar” ?…You point to the personality……so in your mind your priorities are the person…Not necessarily the issue. Also, in all your previous messages, you have almost always evaded the issue raised and have been pointing the finger somewhere else.
May I suggest that you please attempt to look at issues as a process /event / phenomenon without getting any personalities involved (that includes you….so you could practice just observing the process for what it is, past or present). In the past this is what I have seen in our posts….
1. If one attempts to understand how Grace works…you tend to look at at the same exercise as an SSRS debunking mechanism. That may be one of the potential results….but it is not the process or the original intent. The intent was to get at a truth that is strong and can stand the tests of time / place / objectivity and rationale. I can say that this was there in me way before I got introduced to AOL. And it is this that which drives to me to contribute here as well.
2. If one asks you why you took so long to post an answer what we are actually saying is that we clearly made a point that has much and clearly differentiated impact on how one sees the same things again. And indirectly, you are being asked…”Dude this is so profound and in your face”…haven’t you got it yet ? And what do you do ?…You take it (chose to interpret) such a question mark on your lifestyle. You evade the direct question and say “I have a life other than this Blog”.
This BLOG is questioning the VERY fundamentals of your personal belief system Doctor Peter…lets be very clear about that !!…….It raises genuine important questions on “Who and What” you think you are at this time. I believe that are important questions and they challenge our current paradigms of who and what we think we are. If the same thing had happened to me….I would feel very very challenged. So much so, I would not rest or do anything else until I got the bottom of it (which is in all probably just an AHA moment away and quite simple to do….you drop any denial and accept all doubts in their entirety…with a feeling and sense of responsibility that I am going figure them out…even if it kills me…AND no matter what happens…and I will not expect or allow anybody else figure them out for me…this I gotta do myself…its just for me…and I am ready to face whatever LIFE throws at me…this takes trust and courage in equal measure). And in such a situation…you have other more important things to do ? Really ? I think you are now being evasive with your own heart and soul. You are running away from yourself.
3. AND once again again….look at the above post now, instead of answering any of DFB’s questions directly you are attempting to throw some negative light on DFB’s personality.
4. Direct questions are being raised about the authenticity of the practices, SK, the teachings and the implied/manipulated messages around the original words, their mode of propagation,….and you keep repeatedly asking about every individual reader’s commitment to an non-existent COPYRIGHT. Here once again you evade the main issue (which is the authenticity and originality of the AOL teaching material)…and once again can you see how you have evaded this issue and are attempting to draw into this the personality — ie highlighting the ethics of an ex-devotee / ex-teacher in terms of their potential copyright violation (which BTW does not exist as shown by US court of law).
DFB’s post is STARK direct. It has clearly called you on your “evasiveness” (running away and evading factual representations …probably a habit that you DO even realise you have)…and you as usual …..(have been very very predictable) evaded this as well.
What is predictable is a machine. A machine is programmed to do a certain set of things and it keeps repeating them again and again consistently. One part of Dr Peter is just that …a machine. Predictable. There is another part that I see which is NOT a machine. its a sentient being. It has feelings, its real, its genuine, its loving…..but I can see that it is also very scared. It is this fear that brings you back to this BLOG.
This BLOG is not a threat to you Dr Peter. You can simply stop reading the stuff here and move on with your life. But you cant…..WHY ?
So, For just once, please attempt to stick to the point and answer these questions.
I ask them again…..on behalf of the other readers who visit this blog
a. Why do you post on the same subject under so many names when your responses are not telling in anyway. If anything they are always largely vague and misleading. Never direct.
b. If you have been in AOL for as long as you claim and been on the path of awareness for over 40 years. I was in AOL for over 10 years. I was a teacher for 9 of those years. Then the most important thing that gets drilled into your mind subtly (it will never be said directly to anyone by SrSri) through TTC and in all the satsangs and informal circles are as follows.
I. The teacher running the long Kriya tape is like a step down transformer for the Grace. the original source is so powerful…you need somebody to do it (And remember, its a “chosen” few that can do this…..and to be chosen you gotta earn it…..!!!).
II. Even today, many many teachers believe that SriSri operates through their minds and bodies while they are teaching….and at those times they are not really themselves. In fact, another subtle manifestation of such misguided truths….is that there are “classes” amongst teachers. Did you know that MORE Grace flows through Part-1 teachers ? SSY teachers are all rated second and lower in line compared to the part-1 teachers !! The part-1 teachers are the Original TRUE Grace-line. …..all others teachers are relatively inferior.
III. During the TRMs and TTCs all of the above are openly discussed and SriSri never actively / proactively dissuades anyone from thinking in this specific way. He allows it to happen. That to me is DECEPTION. And he has been doing this for many decades now. His teachers are his GO TO MARKET mechanism. They market the dis-information internally very heavily and forcefully, simply because they so strongly want to continue to believe in it (even after the 1st doubts start to creep in). The teacher function, for many many of them is their LIFE-line and very important aspirational REASON to LIVE. …more important then even their immediate families. ( I have been there, done it, seeing many of my ex-collegues and friends continue to do this even today)
IV. The idea of a Part-1 teacher being a step down transformer to an ENLIGHTENED BEING is CENTRAL and KEY to the very life / propagation of AOL. I would even say that it is the very DRIVING FORCE behind all those folks standing in queue and serving their current part-1 teachers (so their own TTC recommendation can go thru….and trust me most of them will not even realise this…..wait until they become part-1 teachers and then see their difference of opinions starting to be voiced AGAINST their previous part-1 teachers….its funny how this always happens…I did it too…and I have seen a significant majority of AOL part-1 teachers do the same…for decades now). The beauty is that this keeps the devotees DIVIDED. It is all different different teacher factions. Easier to rule when you are divided. A simple system, followed since the ages…”Divide and rule”. If you are integrated the truth spreads very very rapidly and thats very powerful….but then so will the doubts…..NO…we cannot have that can we ?
V. A stark majority of these folks referred to above believe that once they are blessed by SriSri with a Part-1 tape and manual they are the chosen FEW to walk alongside the new age Jesus/Buddha/Krishna/Shiva. And it is now their privilege, honor, obligation and duty to be the carriers of the Master’s GRACE by playing the LONG KRIYA tape for OTHERS who get good things through “ME” because I am now a part-1 Teacher. But remember, this can happen ONLY after I have been chosen…….
This is what keeps the AOL busine$$ machinery running.
AND….what is shocking to me is that you, Dr Peter, claim that you are totally oblivious and unaware of all of the above inner workings / positioning messages and that this does not even remotely appeal / register with you as AOL’s way of working ?. Common Dr Peter who are we kidding here ?
It could only mean the following
a. You are a very very unaware being. (According to me less than 1% probability)
or
b. You do see it, yet you are in complete denial and have a huge block as regards the truth of something as major as this. (98% plus probability….again thats just my take)
OR
b. All the anonymous, nameless, address-less ex-AOL writers and contributors to this BLOG from all over the world have somehow colluded together and are expressing untruths just to showcase Dr Petersutphen in BAD LIGHT. They have no other LIFE outside this BLOG and their only and sole mode of entertainment is Dr Petersutphen bashing. (Less than 0.001% probability…..very close to Zero..)
I have a request of you Dr Peter. Please for ONCE, respond to me DIRECTLY from your heart.
1. Do you not even remotely get a genuine sense of openness and truth from the contributors in this blog ?. Do you get a little whiff of it ?….just a little ?. Would you have the kindness and courtesy to acknowledge that please ? I accept that there has been AOL bashing in some posts……but is that all there is in this Blog ? is there anything else…such as the above that I have suggested ? What do you feel Dr Peter ?
2. Please, I implore you to go through this post and also DFB’s post once again….even if its a little painful. Do it once again but with a different purpose. DO not read meaning into anything. Please would you just try and attempt to sense the energy and intent behind the messages ?.
Are they malicious Dr Peter ?
Are their fair and just queries to put forward…to anyone ?
Are they mostly objective or they mostly biased ?
Does it make a reader think for himself or herself ?
Is it empowering to a previously unbiased reader ?
Are these posts misleading and elusive on to the reader ?
Are these posts meant to bash an individual ? …or are they centred around an issue and is meant for all the readers that visit here ?
Do you think that DFB or I are in anyway remotely concerned about what people will think about us once they read this post. Is that even relevant to us ?….considering that we are anonymous anyways.
Are we protecting any identity / affiliation here ? or are we saying “this is what it is” !!
Much love and Prayers come with this post Dr Peter…..I am reaching out to you at this time as we journey through life. I have sincerely attempted to share my view with you….just another view among many that could exist about the same thing. Hopefully, somewhere some of it resonates with you. If not, nothing is lost. I enjoyed posting this in cyberspace….for anyone that may chance upon it. Just another “Letter in a bottle (Bloggle !!) ” dropped onto the ocean of life.
Thank you, all of you that are reading this… for co-creating this communication with me.
IO What a truly compassionate response! I’m not as good as you, I fear. I suspect that Dr Peter is completely convinced that he is right, the blog and it’s contributers are “bad” because they don’t like his Guru, and that people posting their true experiences here are “unlucky” people because they just “can’t understand” his ‘wonderful’ Guruji. Lots of old TMers and old AOLers are like that — superiority complexed. Anyhow, I hope he reads what you wrote, and thinks about it deeply. If he actually doesn’t see what he’s involved in, and can’t see the harm in it, then he is in trouble and may suffer from that association with Ravi Shankar.
@ IO [May 18, 2012 5:01 am]
Thank you for this post, IO. It is infinitely insightful and I’ve read it several times since you posted it. I hope that The Doctor considers posting it as a main post some time soon — since it seems to me that the issues you’ve raised have almost been completely ignored.
As for Dr. Peter, my guess is that Dr. Peter genuinely believes that all that is said in AoL about Guru Grace and the benefits of being in AoL is true.
He is simply unable to appreciate that the truth is something which cannot be disputed by even one person.
It seems to me that he has taken upon the task of demolishing all who dispute the main ideas perpetuated in / by AoL.
At a conscious level, he is unable to accept — let alone acknowledge and process — that ideas are simply ideas and untrue till they are disputed by even one person.
The fact that all ideas perpetuated by AoL have been disputed by one or the other person should indicate to him that those ideas are not true.
Therefore, he is relentlessly involved in attempting to demolish individuals who dispute what he thinks is “the truth” — from Skywalker to The Doctor.
However, the act of attempting to demolish the credibility of those who dispute ideas is evidence in itself. (Res ipsa locquitur)
That he ignored your post is evidence in itself.
It means that he knows he cannot establish that “his truth” is “the truth” unless he succeeds in the demolition of the people who dispute “his truth”.
His behaviour results from the subconscious acknowledgment of the fact that “his truth” is not “the truth”.
If he was confident of his beliefs, not only would he not post under multiple pseudonyms, he would simply not post on this blog. IMHO.
For instance, I believe that Mahatma Gandhi’s contribution to India is irrefutable. Those who refute it are free to do so, but I don’t care for what they have to say. Therefore, I spend my time reinforcing his ideas in spirit, rather than attempting to demolish those who believe otherwise.
There was a time when I did care for what others had to say. But I got over it because it’s a free world — and ultimately — we’re all free to believe in what we wish to believe in. So, I now think that the critics of Mahatma Gandhi are free to criticize him. They’re not breaking the law. I’m not breaking the law. It’s about everyone’s freedom to say what they wish to say — which incidentally — is what Mahatma Gandhi fought for.
If Mr. Ravi Shankar’s ideas were about peace, tolerance, acceptance, kindness, sensitivity etc. etc., then believing in him would have taken Dr. Peter to a place from where he spoke nothing “negative” or “attacking”. In more than 20 years, if Mr. Ravi Shankar has failed in making Dr. Peter someone who is at peace, tolerant, accepting, kind, sensitive etc. in all situations — not sometimes — then it’s obvious how ineffective AoL is — something that The Doctor mentions in his conclusion (in the main post on this page).
That really is the key issue.
Does being in AoL for over 20 years not help people behave themselves with those who don’t agree with them?
At least Dr. Peter’s behaviour clearly indicates that being in AoL for over 20 years does not make a human being behave with those who don’t agree with that person. This, to my mind, is a pure and simple case of rabid intolerance — albeit disguised in what may appear to be eloquent language on most occasions.
Just my thoughts… after reading your incredibly insightful post…
Peter,
In his post above IO has said most of what I wanted to say in response to you, as well as a great deal more which I really feel you should take some time to reflect upon and respond to. I will add only a few things which IO didn’t touch upon.
I have accused you of lying (NOT of being a liar, they are two very different things though it’s beyond the scope of this blog to go into the details) because you have outright lied on this blog on so many occasions and continue to do so even now. This is not just my opinion but something which is substantiated by much of what you have written here.
In my original comment to you I explicitly said “I was still convinced that the tape wouldn’t work without the presense of a teacher. This is after all what we were all led to believe, that the tape requires the “Guru’s Grace” to “flow” through a trained teacher.”
There is no way you could have misunderstood this as there is absolutely nothing which is open to interpretation. And please don’t try to tell us you did your Part 1 course 20 years ago and can’t remember any of this. The seeds of this lie are planted in the Part 1 course, but it is one of the central lies which is propagated throughout AoL in all subsequent courses, talks and so on. So there is no way someone who has been in AoL as long as you have was never made aware of it. You are certainly fully aware of “Guruji’s Grace” as you have been very explicit in sharing your views on this in the past. And from all the things you have said about your time with MMY as well as RS, this is definitely something you were aware of as you seem to have gone out of your way to learn about all the teachings and practices of both of these teachers.
You tell us you have a life outside this blog, yet you still managed to leave so many other comments here since this was posted. No Peter, this was a simple enough question which you could have responded to at the time. But you didn’t. You just evaded it, then responded to a separate comment under a pseudonym in the hope that I wouldn’t notice that you were being evasive. And when I called you on that you further lied by telling us you forget which pseudonyms you post under. Really Peter?
And worse still, when you eventually did respond (only after several requests from posters here), you pretended you didn’t actually understand it. Did it really take you this long to realize you didn’t understand the question? Couldn’t you have said this at the time and saved yourself all of this hassle?
Remember all of this started in response to you telling us you have seen very little proof of what we are saying on this blog. Well, I told you that this one thing proves a great deal about AoL and RS, because it does. It clearly proves that AoL is scamming its devotees, and this is incontrovertible evidence – evidence which you yourself asked for but which you completely ignored and pretended not to understand. This may not bother you and you may want to bury your head in the sand which you clearly are doing, but it certainly bothers me and a great many other people here and we are doing our best to make sure as many people know about this as possible.
And you actually have the nerve to tell us “I work under the assumption that everyone posting here is being honest to their own experience when you yourself are being dishonest here. Sorry Peter, but you clearly are. I have already given you a great deal of courtesy on this blog but you have been very discourteous yourself by lying in this manner. Please don’t pretend you aren’t, you won’t fool anyone.
If you were in any way being sincere and honest you would have responded straight away instead of completely ignoring it and only giving a vague response to VSS as you did.
So yes Peter, you are clearly lying, and you know fine well you are lying.
Doctor, you make all these assumptions regarding what my experience has been and then argue because I have had these experiences I must be lying. But of course I’m not a liar, I’m just lying! No explanation will gratify you and therefore I’m being evasive. Again all this projection of intent and motivation into me. We could have a good discussion regarding many of these issues, but your hysterical rant and follow-up post clearly indicate you don’t want to do this. Best of luck. Of course feel free to hammer away regarding my “evasiveness”on this post too.
I’m not making any assumptions Peter, I’m basing what I’ve said entirely on what you’ve told us on this blog under various pseudonyms during your time here. And no, this isn’t a hysterical rant – looks like you’re projecting yet again.
I have said everything I can possibly say on this subject, and if I say anything more it would just be to repeat what I’ve already said which doesn’t seem to be getting through to you. You have still to respond to the majority of things that IO and I have asked in this post and in other comments, and you have chosen not to. You wonder why it is that we accuse you of being evasive?
If you really wanted to have a civilized discussion, you would respond to these things in a civilized manner. But you don’t want to do this, you just want to evade these questions, bury your head in the sand, and pretend they don’t exist. That’s absolutely fine, but don’t come here on the pretense of wanting to have a civilized discussion if that’s the case. A discussion is something which involves two or more parties … discussing. Not one party saying something and the other ignoring it.
Superior, as usual, Dr. Peter. Doesn’t it get lonely there at the top? If you hate this blog so much, why bother reading it? Or maybe it’s starting to sink in……….
@ drpetersutphen [May 18, 2012 10:05 am]
If you have time, please take a look at the following comment:
You will notice that someone who has been associated with AoL for several years, and mentions that some teachers don’t talk about “Guru’s Grace”, is aware of “Guru Grace” talk — and — confirms — through their comment — that someone who has been associated with AoL for several years has heard the talk about “Guru’s Grace”.
Still, let’s assume for a moment that it’s possible you haven’t heard “Guru’s Grace” talk.
On — May 1, 2012 — at — 2:23 am — you posted:
>> About two to three years after this Guruji came to Florida again. I came late to a meeting and when I walked in the door, everybody was singing bhajans (which I couldn’t stand back then, now I love them!). I glanced at Guruji, he glanced back at me and the whole thing opened up, to say the least. I experienced Guruji as Brahman; huge, vast, infinite, yet outside of all space and time; all knowledge, all bliss; glowing with deep, profound “knowledge”. My mind just popped and collapsed into stillness! I finally saw who he was. He was Maharishi; Maharishi was him; infinite pure Brahman looking right at you!
I’m sharing these experiences so people can understand the experiential context within which I see Guruji and the AOL. I’m not dismissing any experience to the contrary that people might have. We all can have very different karmas and dharmas with spiritual teachers. Heck, I hugged AMMA twenty years ago and total zilch! It was very clear my spiritual path did not lie with her. But for other people, it certainly did.
I’ve been very blessed that I never had to understand the “specialness” of my two spiritual teachers as a concept; that I didn’t have to judge them from their surface behavior. If I only knew Maharishi from his surface behavior, I would have left the TM movement many, many years ago. We all have ego ideals that we use to judge and evaluate relationships, but these ego ideals have almost no use on a spiritual path. Actually, I’m beginning to realize they have no use at all on a spiritual path at all! But you do need that experience of Brahman; that darshan of the infinite to understand a satguru….in my humble opinion!! <<
Do you recall this comment?
In this comment, you mention that you're not talking about "surface behavior" — is it possible that you might be speaking about what can be termed as Guru's Grace?
@ The Doctor [May 18, 2012 9:21 am]
Your main post and the “follow up” post can be referred to as “a hysterical rant” only by someone who thinks he is not “ranting hysterically”.
Where is the disagreement? There is no disagreement.
The issue really is that someone who has been in AoL for over 20 years, and does not know the myths about the SK tape that are perpetuated actively and proactively (as IO mentioned) thinks that what you and scores of others have testified to — is incorrect.
If someone thinks that there is no myth that is actively and proactively perpetuated in AoL about the SK tape, and is insistent, only personal exposure to the myth and its active and proactive perpetuation can change the person’s perception.
There are mainly two situations in which a person usually changes their perception:
1. Because of a personal experience — and hence the term experiential learning.
2. Because of empathy — hence the expression — learning from the experience of others.
In this instance, there is a complete absence of empathy. Hence, even “incontrovertible evidence” cannot be factored in.
A person who cannot empathize with others and learn from the experiences of others can only learn from a personal experience.
Now, if the person claims to learn from the experiences of a third party but only if the third party is “an enlightened master”, then the person is not someone who thinks that all humans are equals.
The person makes a distinction between those humans who are “enlightened masters” and those who are not — and goes on to discriminate against those who are not — labeling them in various ways — being derisive — being dismissive — discrediting them — questioning their mind — attributing motives — and essentially indulging in attacking behaviour.
If this was not the case, then responses would be issue-based. For instance, if I was in AoL for over 20 years and would not have been aware of the myth about the SK tape that has been actively and proactively perpetuated, and I had to come up with an issue-based response, I would have said something like:
>> If there is a myth about the SK tape being perpetuated actively and proactively in AoL, then it is wrong to deceive others. However, so far I have no exposure to this myth or the many ways in which this myth is actively and proactively perpetuated. <<
I would not be reactive and engage in a verbal tandava especially if I claim that I am engrossed in a deeply spiritual journey leading to enlightenment.
Someone who is doing this is clearly unable to separate emotions from issues. Considering the fact that this is something that the person is unable to do after over 20 years of pursuing spiritualism, it must be a truly difficult and painful place to be in. In fact, it must be excruciating — it is that pain that is getting expressed in reactive posts. It is that pain that is making the person now play the victim. Dr. Peter seems to be experiencing "righteous indignation".
Therefore, I would request you to write him a supremely compassionate message full of empathy (but without diluting reality). He is probably in urgent need of it. However, please don't feel compelled to do this merely because I said so. I am a nobody. Please consider this request only if you can relate to my perspective. I shan't be offended or anything if you disagree with my reading of the situation. I'll understand.
@VSS,
Methinks an excellent write up. Keep them coming.
@ stupidseeker [May 18, 2012 12:02 pm]
Will do. And, thank you.
@VSS,
You pretty much nailed it with what you said of someone who was in a similar position to what Peter is claiming. If anyone had heard this for the first time and was really surprised, they would have said so. They would have given some indication of this. He didn’t. The rest I have already summarized adequately.
Peter doesn’t want to debate at all, he is happy in his beliefs and doesn’t want these beliefs to be shaken in any way. Which is what this blog is doing. We produce the evidence, he doesn’t want to acknowledge it, doesn’t want to talk about it, and gets irritated when we ask him why he doesn’t want to talk about it.
Peter is lying and being evasive about a great many things, and the worst thing about it all is that he knows full well he is lying. This is really disturbing, but not really that surprising as many others who support AoL have behaved in a similar manner.
So no, I can’t and won’t sugar-coat my responses to him in any way, and writing a “supremely compassionate” response will be futile and a waste of time, and it won’t be a true reflection of my thoughts on the matter.
@ The Doctor [May 18, 2012 1:46 pm]
I understand, accept, and respect your perspective. No worries. If I can, I’ll try to write to him. If I can’t, I’ll let it be.
HHSSRS has posted a huge amount on stuff on internet with respect to the efficacy of the SKY in conditions such as depression presumably to “spread the good word”.
Can someone in AOL request him to enlighten the non AOL community, by way of publishing scientific literature,on how the Shakthi drops, a sri sri ayurveda prodict and nothing but a water extract of six readily available herbs, can boost muscular strenght in the right hand when rubbed topically on the left ????
Dr. peter can we expect any help from you in this matter ??
@ stupidseeker
Are you aware of any scientific research on the subject of “kundalini syndrome” ? In case, you are, I’d appreciate it very much if you could share your knowledge. If not, please ignore this request.
I have sat in on many Part 1 courses over the years. I’ve been on some courses where the teacher talked about Guru’s grace and I’ve been on many more courses where the teacher did not mention grace at all. Based on my own experience I have to conclude that this is not a part of every Art of Living Course.
@ Doreen [May 18, 2012 2:58 pm]
Thank you for your judgement-free, issue-based response.
What percentage of courses included Guru grace talk?
Was it more than 50% or less than 50%?
Would appreciate it if you can share.
@Doreen, this isn’t just about Part 1 courses, and in fact “Guru’s Grace” specifically ISN’T actually mentioned during a Part 1 course. However what is mentioned is some variation of the lie that we have exposed, that the kriya tape doesn’t work unless a teacher is present. This lie is something central to AoL’s teachings, it is something which anyone who has spent any amount of time with AoL is fully aware of. Someone who has spent 20 years with AoL and who boasts as much knowledge as he does of the organization cannot be ignorant of this fact.
Doctor,
Your spot on. The grace thing is actually clearly mentioned in the kriya notes and actually the fist paragraph and should realy serve as a red flag. It is amazing how indoctrinated this whole organization is.
It literally states that one is an instument of the master and his grace an extension of HIM. And that one should leave one’s own mind at the door step and just follow him leave the small mind behind otherwise who knows what will happen all kinds of stress could come your way and you will never be an effective teacher.
So one has to(as prescribed)teach by these guidelines this kinda vibe permeates during the course and starts taking a life of its own. And the organization then builds on it.
It is always HIM and never ME. And thats why he gets to stay in luxery hotels and I………well cn still look at myself in the mirror.
Dr., it looks like we are going to have to terminate our discussions. You have determined as fact that I am fully aware of the relationship of the statement by AOL of the SK tape only “working” in the presence of a teacher through SSRS’s “grace”. When I tell you that I have never formally heard any statement to this effect you claim I am lying. Well, that’s a bit of a conversation stopper! I can only conclude, as suggested by other posters, that AOL teachers talk about things differently in different parts of the world. There’s certainly talk of grace in different contexts in AOL, I’m not denying that, but I simply haven’t heard it regarding the SK tape. Frankly, I don’t understand all the concern about the SK tape. I’ve always viewed SK as a pure technique just like a mantra meditation. I’ve had great experiences with both. Doing SK alone without the tape and in groups with the tape has the same effect. It seems stronger with the tape and in groups but I always assumed that was because it was done for a longer time. You know, I’m not some spokesperson for the AOL. I’m just somebody who has had very good results from SK along with meditation and my association with SSRS. Demanding I respond to your questions and then rejecting my responses as “lying” because you know I really must know something that I truly don’t is a tad strange. How can I even respond to that?
It’s not my experience that “the kriya tape doesn’t work unless a teacher is present” is central to AoL’s teachings, so I am inclined to accept that it may not be a part of someone else’s experience either.
This claim that AOL teachers are instructed to say that the kriya tape does not work without a teacher present is completely bogus. It was not part of my TTC, nor any of the other dozen or so TTC’s I have attended.
Come on folks! Use your common sense. SK works by massaging the hypothalamus through rythmic stimulation of the nerve endings in the septum. This produces an holistic beneficial hormonal balancing effect for most practitioners. For those who experience discomfort or other challenges due to the practice, they should simply stop and look for some other technique that better suits their physiology.
Nice try JuJu, but perhaps you weren’t aware that there are a large number of ex-teachers here, and many people have seen the SK notes that were previously leaked on the internet. Because if you knew this you wouldn’t have tried to deceive people here like you have.
We all know that the SK tape only works without a teacher present is one of the central tenets of TTC and of AoL. Unless TTC has radically changed in the last year, and I do mean radically such as getting rid of all the Guru stories and all the other brainwashing, then you are obviously lying about having even done TTC. This story about SK massaging the hypothalamus through rhythmic stimulation is again something you’ve just made up. Nowhere in the history of AoL has this ever been mentioned by anyone. And it certainly isn’t “common sense” as you put it.
The only thing you have mentioned which has any truth in it whatsoever is: “For those who experience discomfort or other challenges due to the practice, they should simply stop and look for some other technique that better suits their physiology.”
There is a specific point in the Part 1 course on gratitude and from what I’ve seen there is some variation in how different teachers express it.
I’ve heard some teachers express it as: The more you live your life with an attitude of gratefulness the more abundance you will experience in your life.
I’ve heard some teachers express it as: The more grateful you are, the more you open yourself up to grace flowing into your life.
I can only remember one case where the teacher, who was visiting from India, referred to grace explicitly as “Guruji’s grace” on a Part 1 course.
I personally don’t recall ever hearing a teacher tell a Part 1 student that the SK tape wouldn’t work if they used it on their own.
I have heard them say that SK is only meant to be practiced once a week and in a group, and so only teachers are given SK tapes.
I have also heard them say that if someone wants to learn SK they must come and take the AOL course with a certified teacher else they may not get the full benefit.
@ Doreen [May 18, 2012 4:23 pm]
Thank you for your response.
In all the sessions that you attended, did the teacher explain how the disciple is connected to the Guru — and the effect of the Guru’s presence in a disciple’s life?
In other words, what did the teachers say would be the effect of having a Guru in your life?
Doreen
Sangeeta Jani emphasizes Grace as per a certain Poornima Sharma.
http://sangeetajani.blogspot.com/2010/09/sangeeta-jani-teaches-navaratri-art-of.html
“…She emphasized the Grace behind the technique and helped us to soak ourselves in it. I have started feeling Guruji’s presence so much more in my life now. I’m grateful for Him being there and sending Sangeeta didi as His instrument of grace. My mind was torn but now I’m back, collected, composed and relaxed. Feels like a flower has blossomed again.”
Just because you feel good after SK, can it be ascribed to Grace?
Doreen, I was told personally that the tape was actually dangerous if not used with a teacher. By SSRS. He said that people could be hurt by it on their own. He told me that he was present during the SK and operated through the teacher so nothing could go wrong. I believe you that you did not hear this, but it’s what he himself claims and told me in person. Then he went on to tell me to copy my tapes and not to worry about it. Odd. Lots of contradictions. The tapes always produced the same (many times bad) experiences, whether they were copies made by me, or whether i loaned them to people to practice on their own. I stopped loaning out tapes when I realized how much damage was really being done to some people, teacher present or not. The worst experiences I ever saw, in fact were while SSRS or other teachers were present and the ‘blessed’ tape was running.
The following comments which were left by Peter (@drpetersutphen) not long ago on this blog clearly show what he has to say on the subject of “Guru’s Grace”:
Oh yes, these were written under a different pseudonym as you might have noticed, but they were definitely written by Peter. If you ever wondered why he uses different pseudonyms, this may give you a little insight. Contrast what he’s written in these above comments with some of the claims he’s made over the last couple of days or so and decide for yourself if he is telling the truth or not.
@ The Doctor [May 18, 2012 5:36 pm]
I think this post from you will really, really help Dr. Peter.
In my mind, the issue is distilled to the following:
Stories of “Guru Grace” are actively and proactively perpetuated in AoL.
However, there is no evidence to prove that all people in AoL have experienced “Guru Grace” uniformly.
“Guru Grace”, therefore, is not a universally experienced fact.
A fact is defined as: “A thing that is indisputably the case.”
If there is even one individual who disputes the existence of “Guru Grace” in the case of that individual and Mr. Ravi Shankar, then “Guru Grace” is not a fact.
This blog contains not one but several examples of people who dispute the existence of “Guru Grace”.
Therefore, “Guru Grace” is not a fact.
If anyone in AoL claims that everyone who joins AoL will experience “Guru Grace”, then AoL is lying.
If everyone in AoL has been claiming that everyone who joins will experience “Guru Grace” since over 30 years, then everyone in AoL is lying since over 30 years.
If Mr. Ravi Shankar has not actively instructed all in AoL to tell all who join AoL that they may or may not experience “Guru Grace”, then Mr. Ravi Shankar is a liar.
We all know that AoL promises all who join the experience of “Guru Grace”.
(I know how aggressively I was promised that by not one but seven people.)
We also know that all who join do not experience “Guru Grace”.
(As Uttam mentioned, those who don’t empty their minds, face problems.)
Therefore, Mr. Ravi Shankar is an out and out liar who has been lying since over 30 years.
QED. (quod erat demonstrandum) Hence proved.
Further, if this issue is to be addressed, then the only way it can be done is if AoL clearly tells everyone who is about to join — that they may or may not experience “Guru Grace” — that they may or may more benefit from “SK” — that they may or may not get “enlightened” and so on and so forth.
If they do not intend to do so, then they are liars who intend to remain liars.
Those who are reading — if you were clearly told before joining AoL that you may or may not experience “Guru Grace”, that you may or may not benefit from “SK”, that you may or may not get “enlightened” and so on and so forth — please share the details of precisely what you were told. In my case, I was guaranteed all of this and more before I joined by not one but seven people from AoL. When I read this blog, I realized that it is not necessary that whatever is guaranteed will happen because I read posts by those who disputed these guarantees. That proved to me that these guarantees are false.
A guarantee is defined as “A formal assurance or promise, esp. that certain conditions shall be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction.”
Even something as abstract as “happiness” was also guaranteed.
…”you are lying but you are not a liar”….what idiot bastard you are …you days are numbered now…wherever you are i am coming to get you..
Harshal – you can post under whatever pseudonym you like, but your words and your rather unique way you have of expressing yourself will always give you away.
VSS, it really is too bad that some AOL people “guaranteed” you grace. Who knows what will happen in a persons life when tbey start SK.I think their enthusiasm outran their common sense. Perhaps the whole grace angle is something more common in India then the USA.
Dear VSS,
It is not so simple. On the first day of my basic course, the teacher, who is indeed very smart, asked all of us what we were expecting from the course. Different people said different things from their own perspectives, and he simply nodded his head with a smile (the typical RS gestures all teachers are cloned to exhibit). He then summed up the responses with a final answer to his own question, “You will get NOTHING!”. He then went on to give the option of leaving the course to those who wanted. This was his introduction to the knowledge point “Expectations reduce enjoyment”. See how powerful the argument is ? It starts with no explicit guarantee at all. The indoctrination is done in a very subtle and slow manner, and happens without you or even those who promote it ever knowing what is happening.
Dear Original Observer,
Appreciate your note.
Could you please share what it was that you were told that made you decide to enroll for the basic course?
Is it after you had paid the course fee that your course teacher said what he did?
Did he offer a full refund to those who chose to leave when he gave course participants the option to leave?
Did anyone leave?
– VSS
@ drpetersutphen [May 18, 2012 11:06 pm]
It’s not about India and the United States.
It’s about Mr. Ravi Shankar and how he lies / has been lying.
Here’s a quote that you might find insightful:
Q: Why is the road of spirituality so difficult?
Sri Sri: Difficult?! My goodness! This is the smoothest, effortless and easiest. Other jobs are very difficult. I go for the easiest things in the world. It is so comfortable and so easy, you can smile your way through, dance your way through. It is the other things in the world that you have to do that is difficult. When you have to fulfill a desire of yours, it is so difficult. But in the spiritual path, dropping the desire is so easy. You drop it and then you forget about it.
Ref: http://www.artofliving.org/in-en/wisdom-qa
Oh great, Harshal is back? It was so much nicer around here without him.
“guru’s grace: is a tool to enslave
Brainwashing is done in AOL through systemic mind controlled mind controlling techniques/ courses
everybody talks about AOL, SSRS but hardly deserved time is devoted to this central theme.Most of people, Media,does not know about it adequately. Spread it please..
AOL does biggest harm to people by snatching/ taking away their Reasoning and Critical thinking.
If u lose reasoning n critical thinking, u lose yourself and everything
People need to know that hidden purpose of “courses” and “satsangs is not your
“enhancement” but “enslavement”.
Everybody hit the central theme and u hit the “bull’s eye”. Let the world know precisely and scientifically the process of mind control/ enslavement.
Peter,
I really wanted to believe you were being sincere and honest when you recently started posting again on this blog. But looking back over what you’ve said historically, the things you have said just don’t add up. I’m really sorry this is the case and I’m sorry I’ve had to take this approach, but if someone is being dishonest on this blog, no matter what their point of view, then they need to be exposed. This goes especially for people making any false claims against Art of Living, because any lies they tell will greatly weaken what we have to say on this blog. But it also goes for those who support Art of Living. I feel very strongly about people being honest here, and as such I won’t tolerate it when anyone is being obviously dishonest.
I have to agree with you, it’s not nice to accuse someone of lying, in fact it’s a terrible thing and it isn’t something I take any pleasure in doing. But the fact is, when you take into account much of what you have said, it really does point to the fact that you are being untruthful in this instance.
You see, I know for a fact that when I posed the question to you recently about the kriya tape that this wasn’t the first time that you had heard this. I know when I posted Debunking Guruji’s Grace that you left a number of comments there, some of which I have quoted in this post above. Which means that I know that you already read that post. This is very significant because if you go back and re-read that post again, you will notice that there is a section entitled “Long Kriya” where I explicitly discuss this exact same issue in great detail. So you have definitely heard this before on this blog.
Now, if I were in your situation and I had read something like that, if I had genuinely never heard it before and had no knowledge of it, I would have been very surprised indeed. I certainly wouldn’t have posted any of the comments which you left because they would make me sound like someone who had heard these things before and who especially believed the myth about the kriya tape. Which your comments clearly do.
If you were telling the truth and were in any way sincere about your reasons for being here, then you have openly discussed this issue and you would have done it long ago. You could have easily said something about the Kriya tape myth either on the Debunking Guruji’s Grace post, or more recently when I directly asked you about it. Something along the lines of “I’m really surprised to hear this, I wasn’t aware of it at all”. But you didn’t. In fact, as I have already pointed out on several occasions, you didn’t response to me at all. You ignored it completely, though you proceeded to respond to so many other questions. And this comment which was after all left to you in response to something which you said about us having very little proof on this blog.
As to the question of whether or not you have heard this in “officially” in Art of Living, I’ve noticed you’ve been very careful to use the words “formally” and “overtly” in your most recent comments on this subject. This is also very telling. No, these things are never discussed “formally” or “overtly” in Art of Living, but we all know they are discussed, and given everything you have already said on this blog, they are certainly things which you are aware of.
As I already said, I didn’t want to do this, but at the same time you left me little choice. I know you know about these things because you have already told us you know, but you then subsequently denied it. It really does pain me to read this, and it pains me even more to have to have to respond to you in this manner. But like I said, it has to be done. I simply won’t have people on the one hand asking others to be honest when they themselves aren’t being honest. It is both lacking in integrity and hypocritical.
So yes, I agree we should terminate this discussion, you are unwilling to answer any more questions and that’s probably for the best. But if you ever post here again in the future, please don’t ask for proof because it’s something you aren’t ready to accept and you probably never will be. That’s how this whole thing started, remember?
@Doctor – i am not discussing the contents of your posts with Dr Peter Sutphen … but the manner in which he has been attacked by you and many others is highly unjust .. I am not justifying or unjustifying what Dr Peter is saying but just because he has a dissenting opinion and does not answer all your questions ..( it cud probably be because this blog hs become extremely difficult to navigate with sheer number of posts .. more so for the non-admins than the admins ..) or even if he ignored certain questions .. its a blog and he is not paid to answer everything what is asked for him here .. in addition to that he probably had a lot to share about his TM & early AoL days both in terms of information & experience .. it hardly mattered whether he had a dissenting or an approving opinion .. unlike most die hard AoL fans Dr Peter Sutphen spoke in a logical tone .. and was open to criticisms about the organization .. most of all he always tried to add a new perpective to any discussion .. .he did not jump to any conclusions so easily nor did he dismiss any one’s opinion per say .. thats a sign of an open minded person..
You just need to ask your self are you doing the same thing that you accuse the AoL foundation of doing – they label people as blue stars and the blog labels people as liars – agents of Aol etc etc ..
Both crush any negative opinion that is expressed .. this blog can be given credit as to allowing people to post alll kinds of comments as against the forums of AoL .. but then the manner in wihch the dissenters are attacked is not much different…
@OA,
I agree with a lot of what you said, Peter has for the most part been a lot more civilized than many of the other pro-AoL posters here. However I don’t believe I have been unjust in the way I have responded to him, and I don’t even agree that he has been “attacked” as you say. I have put forward a very strong case in this post detailing the exact reasons why I believe what I believe about the things he has said here. Certainly what I said was harsh, yes, but also completely fair at the same time. And in all honesty, you can’t really discuss the manner in which I have responded to him without taking into consideration the content of what I have said, the two are inseparable.
This isn’t about labelling people as blue stars or liars or anything like that. I don’t believe Peter is a liar in general, but I do believe he has lied about specific things – that’s the difference between the two – and it is these specific things which I have called him on. They are the result of a conversation which he himself started, but once I gave him what he asked for, he completely ignored it and buried his head in the sand. This in fact was very discourteous, which is strange when you consider that Peter was asking to be treated with courtesy.
And sorry OA, but this has nothing to do with crushing any negative opinions expressed. That’s not how this started and Peter hasn’t actually expressed a negative opinion in this instance. People have expressed negative opinions in the past, and they’re entitled to do that. But as soon as they start being dishonest they get called out in this manner. Which is why I’ve responded to Peter in this manner. I’m personally getting sick of those who support AoL when they say things like “You’ve got no proof” and then going silent on us when we show them the proof and pretending not to have heard.
So I stand by everything I said. I’m not asking you to agree with me or condone what I have said, but I do want you to understand why I said it and I hope this makes it clear.
@ Original — I disagree with you. I feel that Dr Peter is here to express his superiority and accuse all who have posted their real and true experiences of abuse of either misunderstanding his Guruji, or of possibility not telling complete truth. Why should people who have been abused in Art of Living and by Ravi Shankar, not be displeased and express it to someone gushing his accolades about such a man in such an organization. I believe that the Doctor was being very fair in his discussion. Dr. Peter, however, was being a smart as* and avoiding answering pointed questions. All fair evidence of the abuse was given to Dr. Peter, yet he just kept saying, in so many words, “that didn’t happen to me, so how can you say it matters so much?” kind of things. When a dictator hurts his people, even if some were not hurt, the abuses still took place. And that is simply the fact of it.
Hey, thanks OA. I was starting to question my own sanity on this blog!
@ The Doctor [May 19, 2012 1:30 pm]
I have a request. I’m not sure how it can be addressed — I leave that to you. But somehow the distinction between “a falsehood” and “dissent” needs to be clarified / reinforced / asserted. That is the precious lesson that I’ve learnt from this thread — a lesson that I’ll always remember.
The manner in which you have been severely misconstrued, even ruthlessly reprimanded and misrepresented, and IO’s amazingly insightful and incredibly compassionate comment has been ignored is astonishing.
That this is all originating from those claiming to be spiritually evolved is saddening beyond measure.
Dr. Peter is playing the victim to the hilt and enjoying it.
IO is silent.
People who don’t learn from the experiences of other people will continue to attack the credibility of irrefutable evidence and the person who is providing it. Their perception can change only if they evolve into learners who can learn from the experiences of others.
I do not know how this evolution can be facilitated. However, I do know that there is a need to facilitate this.
An interesting thread…I enjoyed reading it. I was in great pain during Christmas last year in my exit phase from AOL, but now I am recovered completely :), thanks to you all…
Talking about SK introduction and effects, different teachers say different things but almost everyone that I’ve seen has given the first introduction of “Expectation reduces joy”, so the mind already is conditioned not to expect anything.
Coming to the question of “Can SK be practised without teacher?” I asked the same question to my teacher wife.
She said, “In TTC, we are told that SK shouldn’t be practised without a teacher” and she just follows that without questioning!
She conducted a couple of courses with a senior teacher. When the participants were doing kriya, one of the participants hands were twisted and his sitting posture wasn’t straight (God knows what was happening to him, I was scared listening to that). Then that Sr Teacher told my wife, “See, that is pure consciousness(???)”.
One evening after a course, that Sr Teacher forced into our house in the context of volunteers meet, and then started saying, “All this stress management, kriya, satsang are all different reasons for pulling everyone into this path, they are of no significance. The truth is that RS is Sri Krishna himself and this period that we are living now will be talked about for a few thousand years that RS lived at this time…we are very lucky to be close to him”. Thanks to him for saying this, I got up from conditioned sleep!
The moment people mix and apply intellect with love or devotion, it gets destroyed. Love or devotion are to be cherished without intellect, just being in the moment.
@ Uttam [May 19, 2012 11:20 am]
True. Any human being who has loved even for a second knows this — and all have. In fact, I have yet to come across any human being who can love by being heartless. It’s impossible.
Uttam, I’m not so sure about that. The heart and the intellect are two “tools” of human consciousness. They certainly can work in harmony with one another. Maybe you are talking more about “doubt” which can appear to be of the intellect but is more complex than that. Doubt does ruin the heart.
“The Revolver” Anonymous said, “One evening after a course, that Sr Teacher forced into our house in the context of volunteers meet, and then started saying, “All this stress management, kriya, satsang are all different reasons for pulling everyone into this path, they are of no significance. The truth is that RS is Sri Krishna himself and this period that we are living now will be talked about for a few thousand years that RS lived at this time…we are very lucky to be close to him”.
Oh man, I really don’t like this type of talk for several reasons. First, it would probably more technically correct to call SSRS an avatar of Vishnu rather than being Krishna. Second, if this type of talk comes out of pure concept, then it is ridiculous to speak this way. It would be a belief, a hope, a wish, a desire you have; just a thought. Thoughts that someone is Divine outside of the experience of their divinity can lead to all sorts of fanaticism divorced from any grounding in actual lived experience. I’m thinking here of the “Christian” Crusades where they slaughtered “unbelievers” in the name of Jesus. A tad ironic to say the least. Third, even if you do experience SSRS as the Divine you need to be rather discriminating when you talk to people about it. Using it to try to motivate volunteers can have the opposite effect as it did with The Revolver. I would qualify all such divine perceptions by saying, “in my experience…”. You have to be careful where you cast your pearls.
Dr. Peter, Actually, SSRS himself told me that he was Krishna. The context was that I was saying how ridiculous all these people were behaving, saying he was God, and Avatar, Krishna, Siva. He was very serious and corrected me and said he was Lord Krishna and I should try hard to think of him that way! This gave me great pause. I, at that time, saw him as Guru, my master. For him to basically order me to think of him as God went against my grain totally. There were other things he told me to encourage these beliefs, and I tried very hard to regard him as Krishna, or Siva, or whomever he was saying he was that week. But I ended up leaving. That was only one of many reasons. I do not regard SSRS as an avatar of anything, but rather a man with lots of faults and a huge agenda which I saw up close and personal. I had experiences that I mistook for ‘divinity’ or ‘gurudham’ at that time. It became clear over time that although he possessed some charismatic powers and siddhis of a real type (in my opinion), that he could not help me on my spiritual journey at all, that he was just interested in creating a huge organization with lots of followers and money. The very fact that he misrepresents himself to the public, when it seems he could just be honest, if he is actually some avatar or master or enlightened, being, caused me to move away rather quickly. It should indeed disturb you that people say this about him. But it should disturb you even more that he says it about himself and actually believes it! There will be all sorts of false masters and gurus in Kali Yuga, Dr. Peter. And they will be very convincing. He is one of them, I’m afraid.
@ Anonymous [May 19, 2012 3:29 pm]
I have read several people mentioning that Mr. Ravi Shankar says he is an avatar of God. I have also read several people mentioning that a teacher told them that Mr. Ravi Shankar is an avatar of God.
Mr. Ravi Shankar should come clean and clearly state that he is an avatar of God if he truly believes that.
Why hide?
If he does not think that he is an avatar of God, then he should tell people who say he is an avatar of God to stop with immediate effect.
The very fact that stories that are going on behind the curtain are not being expressed openly — points to a clear and simple case of deception.
Additionally, the very fact that some people are claiming they were never told that the SK tape cannot work without a teacher, and some are claiming that they were constantly told the SK tape cannot work without a teacher, reveals that contradictory information is being spread in AoL.
I have never attended an AoL course — who should I believe ?
I have to give both sides the benefit of doubt — in which case — my worst fears are confirmed — and those are about the fact that contradictory information is planted in AoL — in order to “brainwash”.
What other purpose can there be — of planting contradictory information?
ABOUT THE ISSUE OF FALSE GUARANTEES:
The Art of living web site is littered with false guarantees. Here’s an illustrative example:
“The practice of meditation makes you skillful in all your actions, enables you to be happy and maintain an undying smile, come what may.” – Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
http://www.artofliving.org/in-en/meditateindia/creativity-meditation
For over 30 years, AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar have been lying.
There are several examples of people who have not benefited from meditation.
If someone has been lying for more than 30 years, I’d refer to that person as an out and out liar. I can understand if people support an out and out liar. But please don’t say that he’s not an out and out liar because that’s simply not true.
Mr. Ravi Shankar is an expert at making statements that do not apply to everyone. These statements are not facts. They are white lies.
ABOUT THE ISSUE OF BRAINWASHING / INDOCTRINATION / MANIPULATION
If after hearing all the so called wonderful things that will result from an association with AoL, people go for the Part 1 Course only to be told that they should not expect anything, then this is yet another classic case of making contradictory statements — making contradictory statements is at the heart of brainwashing / indoctrination / manipulation.
I can understand if people support someone who indulges in comprehensive brainwashing, but please don’t say that he does not indulge in brainwashing because that is simply not true. He attempts to brainwash everyone and that’s a fact — that the brainwashing doesn’t work on everyone is also a fact — but the attempt made on everyone cannot be disputed. Please read the content on AoL’s web site. It’s an aspiring brainwasher’s delight.
Dr., I realize we actually can have a conversation about the assertion regarding the SK tape and grace being present only with a AOL teacher. I still assert that such a claim was never made on my basic course,but… It seems like such a claim has been reported by some. So, let’s say such an assertion has been made. If I remember your original question it was if the SK tape only works with a teacher present, then why did it work for you or others when an AOL teacher was not present? Is that right? By “working” I assume you mean you had the same experience from SK regardless of the absence or presence of a teacher. I’ll stop here and wait for your response….if you want to respond!!
dr petersutphen,
even if you personally did not hear the specific assertion that sudarshan kriya doesn’t work without the guru’s grace, don’t you think you are just arguing about semantics here? so many people are saying they did, it’s being implied in so many of RS’s own discourses, literature. it’s always there. nothing works, nothing is useful, you won’t get anywhere on the path without the guru’s grace. even a murder can be proved in court without people actually witnessing the murder, if the rest of the clues and circumstances and evidence and testimonials add up. why would you express disbelief over something that’s routinely used as a wild card for AOL, anything that cannot be explained logically, the guru’s grace comes in the picture.
Anon said, “I disagree with you. I feel that Dr Peter is here to express his superiority and accuse all who have posted their real and true experiences of abuse of either misunderstanding his Guruji, or of possibility not telling complete truth. Why should people who have been abused in Art of Living and by Ravi Shankar, not be displeased and express it to someone gushing his accolades about such a man in such an organization. I believe that the Doctor was being very fair in his discussion. Dr. Peter, however, was being a smart as* and avoiding answering pointed questions.”
Look, if I’m coming across as trying to sound superior, I do apologize because that is not my conscious intent. As far as being a “smart as*” I truly am not trying to do that either. Often question are asked that contain implicit assumptions that I don’t necessarily agree with. The assumptions need to be articulated before going any further. Also, as OA pointed out, this blog can be very difficult to navigate especially with a cell phone! I don’t object to people writing about their “bad” experiences with SSRS. What I do object to is people projecting psychological traits and characteristics into SSRS or anyone else for that matter. You can only speak of your own experience. We often speak of our own experience in terms of characteristics of others. I experience this in psychotherapy all the time. Someone will say, “My husband is a jerk” as if that is their experience. That actually is not their experience. That is a judgement, a categorization, a labeling of another; a conceptual move to make sense of another’s behaviors that we dislike because of how it makes us feel. The habit of the mind is to focus on this label of the other and to talk endlessly of what a “jerk” they are. This endless talking is an attempt to resolve the barely notice feeling or “felt sense” (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gendlin) of the lived situation that is causing us problems. I see much of the discussion, certainly not all though, on this blog focusing on these “bad” labels regarding AOL and SSRS. People list these horrible personality traits of SSRS as if they have a direct line into his psyche. This is ridiculous. All you can truthfully talk about is your direct experience or objective facts. Healing from any bad experience whether it is AOL or anything else requires a greater awareness of your complex felt sense of the situation, not focusing on the projected inadequacies of others. And, yes, for the record, I have been guilty of projecting “inadequacies” into others on this blog from time to time and it is inappropriate. I did it specifically with VSS because her comments from time to time drive me nuts (but this is my problem, not hers) and I did it in trying to understand the motive of Skywalker posting private AOL teaching material on this blog.
right, we make judgements based on our experience, and why is it so bad or to be avoided? even a child will avoid the fire if they have been burned before. we learn from our experiences, avoid them of they were unpleasant, and warn our friends too. that’s what normal people do. because normal people trust themselves and their own judgement. sometimes we do make errors in judgements, but then we do rectify them at some point, and move on.
people in AOL however, will continue to think about the experience, whether it really was what they thought it was, whether they did kriya the morning they had the experience, maybe they talked to a blue energy person just before they had the experience, whether they had that experience or they were really projecting, and on and on, until they lose all rational thinking abilities. then they go to their aol teacher, or RS and ask about the experience, and over analyze the heck out of a simple issue. grow up people. mild arguments with other people, minor ailments, minor coincidences, getting a phone call just when you were thinking of the same thing, having a bad thought and having something bad happen to you, are all a part of life, and nothing special, nothing the divine or the guru wanted to communicate with you. no-one, not even the divine, is interested in minute details or your life and managing every aspect of your life. i do believe in the divine and the destiny, and being able to control only a few aspects of our life, but to hear the AOL people talking, it’s like they believe guruji is watching and managing their whole environment every single minute of the day. why would he, even he could? wouldn’t he be bored sick, or do you think you are that interesting? Sorry, i know this is not strictly on topic, but i don’t get a chance to post often, and this is my pet peeve with a lot of AOLers. and based on the discourses i have heard, RS actively encourages and propogates this type of thinking. he doesn’t do it because he believes in it, he does it because it’s his bread and butter. it is obvious to me, and i don’t mind that i am making a judgement, because in doing so, i am exercising my rational abilities as a thinking human being, and protecting myself, my family and friends, emotionally and financially, from a dangerous cult. it is what mature and rational adults do. they make sane judgements based on available information.
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
Do you have an opinion about yourself ? What do you think are your strengths ?
VSS, Hmmm, that’s an unusual question. Why do you ask it? I don’t usually think about my self in some sort of evaluative way.
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
Do you experience compassion for Mr. Ravi Shankar ?
VSS, of course I do. Its hard being a guru! Why do you ask?
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
Have you been to the Bangalore Ashram ?
VSS, no, I have never been to the Bangalore ashram.
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
Which other Ashrams have you been to ?
Did you go for the Berlin Festival ?
VSS, no other AOL ashrams unless you count the LA center an ashram! I did not go to the Berlin Festival . I’m not a festival kind of guy! Also, wherever Guruji is, there’s the ashram!
what a beautiful reply !
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
The last question for now …
Which AoL event has been the highlight of your AoL journey ?
Whenever I have contact with Guruji is the highlight of my AOL career. But my favorite was when I was his “guard” outside his door and organized people going in and out to see him. That was pretty amazing! Good karma and grace on that one. Oops! There’s that word again.
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 8:17 pm]
You mentioned “AoL career”. Did you mean the word “career” in the way that this word is commonly deployed?
Would you say you are so close to Mr. Ravi Shankar that he would recognize you by name?
Are you close enough to him for him to share his phone number with you?
If yes, then does he receive your calls / answers to texts?
Yes, the tape was to only be touched and played by a teacher. Moreover, a teacher could not do kriya on their own with the tape.
@ drpetersutphen [May 19, 2012 3:45 pm]
“All you can truthfully talk about is your direct experience or objective facts.”
This is completely false — and this is what is at the core of your thought process.
I can see that all your comments basically defend the above.
Kindly watch this video:
http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/178276/lokpal-not-a-cure-of-all-the-ills-sri-sri-ravi-shankar.html
Mr. Ravi Shankar talks about Ms. Aruna Roy who he has never met and has had no “direct” experience of interacting with.
He talks about her prejudices “as if he has a direct line into her psyche”.
Not only is what you are saying false, your own Guru flouts this principle you believe in on national television — and has done so on a number of occasions.
You did the same with Skywalker “as if you have a direct line into Skywalker’s psyche.”
In addition, what is completely bizarre about this principle of yours is that if it were to be applied to any citizen of India talking about corrupt politicians, then it would be a preposterous gag order.
Most of those who speak about the corruption of politicians — particularly with regard to the 2G Scam — have absolutely no “direct” experience of the scam in the manner in which you define “direct”.
They can, and are talking about it — and they do believe that they are being truthful — when they say so and so politician is responsible for the 2G scam. They do not think that they are lying.
This right is guaranteed by the Constitution of India — in India — and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States — in the United States.
Only an empowered judge can make a judgment on whether or not someone has violated the right — if the judge is petitioned to adjudicate.
You are not a judge.
Your Guru took this blog to court and an empowered judge found no problem whatsoever with the posts and comments on this blog by the owner and third party authors.
The only issue that remains is the trade secret issue.
There is no problem as far as posts and comments are concerned.
You are behaving like an out and out anarchist who is making all kinds of comments about whether or not people have the right to talk about Mr. Ravi Shankar and AoL based on your definition of “direct” experience and your definition of “facts”.
People in India live by the Constitution of India.
People in the United States live by the Constitution of the United States.
Please don’t try to be above the Constitution of any nation.
You have no “direct” experience in the making of any Constitution.
If you think that Constitutions should be amended to define “free speech” according to your definitions, then this is not the forum for that.
This is a forum where people accept the definition of “free speech” as defined in their respective National Constitutions.
You are free to say what you wish about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar but please don’t try to rewrite Constitutions through this forum and prevent others from saying what they wish to say about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar based on your definition of “direct” experience and “facts”.
Statements questioning rights defined by National Constitutions are off topic.
Statements attempting to demolition individuals based on your definitions of “direct” experience and “facts” are off topic.
They have not worked and they will not work in the future either.
You will fail miserably in communicating whatever you wish to communicate about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar if you continue to question the Constitutional Rights of individuals who post on this forum.
So, kindly stop playing the victim. You have been consistently and relentlessly victimizing the rest of us here. Please spare us your crocodile tears.
OA was moved because OA is a compassionate person. Kindly do not abuse OA’s emotions to further your constant targeting of everyone’s Constitutional Rights.
It’s a request.
VSS said, “Mr. Ravi Shankar talks about Ms. Aruna Roy who he has never met and has had no “direct” experience of interacting with.
He talks about her prejudices “as if he has a direct line into her psyche”.
Not only is what you are saying false, your own Guru flouts this principle you believe in on national television — and has done so on a number of occasions.
You did the same with Skywalker “as if you have a direct line into Skywalker’s psyche.”
In addition, what is completely bizarre about this principle of yours is that if it were to be applied to any citizen of India talking about corrupt politicians, then it would be a preposterous gag order.
Most of those who speak about the corruption of politicians — particularly with regard to the 2G Scam — have absolutely no “direct” experience of the scam in the manner in which you define “direct”.
They can, and are talking about it — and they do believe that they are being truthful — when they say so and so politician is responsible for the 2G scam. They do not think that they are lying.
This right is guaranteed by the Constitution of India — in India — and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States — in the United States.
Only an empowered judge can make a judgment on whether or not someone has violated the right — if the judge is petitioned to adjudicate.
You are not a judge.
Your Guru took this blog to court and an empowered judge found no problem whatsoever with the posts and comments on this blog by the owner and third party authors.
The only issue that remains is the trade secret issue.
There is no problem as far as posts and comments are concerned.
You are behaving like an out and out anarchist who is making all kinds of comments about whether or not people have the right to talk about Mr. Ravi Shankar and AoL based on your definition of “direct” experience and your definition of “facts”.
People in India live by the Constitution of India.
People in the United States live by the Constitution of the United States.
Please don’t try to be above the Constitution of any nation.
You have no “direct” experience in the making of any Constitution.
If you think that Constitutions should be amended to define “free speech” according to your definitions, then this is not the forum for that.
This is a forum where people accept the definition of “free speech” as defined in their respective National Constitutions.
You are free to say what you wish about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar but please don’t try to rewrite Constitutions through this forum and prevent others from saying what they wish to say about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar based on your definition of “direct” experience and “facts”.
Statements questioning rights defined by National Constitutions are off topic.
Statements attempting to demolition individuals based on your definitions of “direct” experience and “facts” are off topic.
They have not worked and they will not work in the future either.
You will fail miserably in communicating whatever you wish to communicate about AoL and Mr. Ravi Shankar if you continue to question the Constitutional Rights of individuals who post on this forum.
So, kindly stop playing the victim. You have been consistently and relentlessly victimizing the rest of us here. Please spare us your crocodile tears.
OA was moved because OA is a compassionate person. Kindly do not abuse OA’s emotions to further your constant targeting of everyone’s Constitutional Rights.
It’s a request.”
Okay!
Hi der..I would like to add a word here.I did my basic course in 2003 in India,in a city near Mumbai.My teacher was a senior teacher in this area.
In last few years,I happened to repeat basic course 7 times with 3 different teachers for various reasons. (e.g.- I had arranged the course or I happened to assist the course )
I have attended these courses from start to end.
In all these 8 courses,topic of Sudarshan Kriya tape was discussed only once,in my first course that to after the course was over.
Teacher had said very clearly that though she had tape,she didn’t have permission to use it for herself.No teacher could.Tape was meant only for group S.K. Since only teachers had tape,it was taken for granted it will be played in presence of teacher.Since S.K. is a yogic practice and all yogic processes are supposed to be potentially harmful if done without proper teacher guidance,we accepted what she had told.
Nobody said anything about ‘grace’ flowing through tape or ‘kriya’ tape not working without teacher.Other teachers didn’t even bother to say anything about tape.
This could be recent addition by some enthusiastic teachers-volunteers.We don’t have to take it exactly by words.
I would like to add a word of caution. After my first course,I have heard of at least two episodes where participants have had some problem after long kriya.Our teacher had contacted senior teachers immediately and taken care of them.None of them had any long lasting problems.
There has to be reason why long S.K. is to be done with teacher present..so even if it’s version available on net,nobody should try to do that at home.
“There has to be reason why long S.K. is to be done with teacher present..so even if it’s version available on net,nobody should try to do that at home.”
It’s to keep people hooked and bring them back to follow up sessions, satsangs, etc. It’s not very good business to give someone a tape, as no money is made that way.
Jr., that is one possible scenario, but I truly doubt it. For a “money making organization ” they don’t charge enough money for their basic courses.
They make enough on their courses to keep starting new centers around the world. They make plenty on their course fees.
But Jr. The course fees are within reason. I contrast the AOL Sahja samadhi course fee of $350 in the USA with the TM course fee of 1500 and earlier it was 3000. That’s a tad excessive IMHO. What’s wrong with charging a fee for spiritual teaching? There’s a whole business end to everything. What spiritual organization does not collect money or charge fees? They do have to pay for things!
When I took Sahaj many years ago, it was only $75 (discounted fee). And the highest possible fee was $125. Why the sudden increase to $300+? And yes, TM is WAY overpriced, but then we’re not really discussing that are we? Courses with SSRS used to cost less than $200. Good luck finding one under 800$ these days. This is not a botheration for me, as I will never take another AOL course again, but rather, I’m thinking of all the others who are getting ripped off big time.
“What’s wrong with charging a fee for spiritual teaching?”
Fees should just be enough to cover the rent, food, travelling, teachers time and then they should stop right there and then take optional donations after that. I agree with you that there has to be a business side to many things in order to survive, especially since AOL is a business and not a Non-profit organization. I would have no issue paying $100 for a Sahaj course if I knew it was going towards the people who needed it. If they want to charge fees, then at least pay the volunteers something. At least pay the teachers what they deserve, and not just the rock star teachers. But no, the money is going into private accounts and into starting new centers like the one in Los Angeles. Another problem is (especially today) the course fees are so high, and not everyone can afford to have access to something they should. KNOWLEDGE BELONGS TO US ALL. I guess only people with an extra $1,000 laying around are worthy of the knowledge. It is not something only “special” people should have access to. Of course now I realize that meditation is something that can easily be learned for free and that taking a Sahaj course is not necessary to learn this delicate practice. Lastly, It really goes against spirituality to be as money-aggressive as AOL are.
A note about my previous comment…
“Another problem is (especially today) the course fees are so high, and not everyone can afford to have access to something they should”
I’m not implying that people should take AOL courses. I was rather implying that people should have access to some of the knowledge and meditation taught in the courses. See, I’m not anti-AOL. I would be lying if I didn’t think some of the knowledge and techniques were good. Kriya is dangerous for many many, but many of the other parts are good.
Thank you Sadhana. You said, “Nobody said anything about ‘grace’ flowing through tape or ‘kriya’ tape not working without teacher.Other teachers didn’t even bother to say anything about tape.”
You seem to have had the most recent experience of the basic course of everyone posting here. As I remember it too, nothing about grace flowing through the tape or teacher. Also, as you note, the tape is only with a teacher present so how could anyone tell if it “worked” or not by listening to it alone?
Dr. Peter, If you don’t think they charge enough for their basic courses to be a money making organization, why don’t you suggest they give it for free? The reason would be “because someone has to pay for the teacher and venue”. But that is false. Even in many cases where the teacher is paying their own way, and the venue is someone’s home, and there is no need whatsoever for fees, the request to teach for free (it has been made) has been turned down. The reason given? “people don’t value what they get for free”. That is BS IMHO.
dr peter,am I Jr. as compared to you but I think there are many more posting here their experiences,have done basic in last 3 years..
@ all who are reading this thread
Please keep in mind that Dr. Peter believes in all sorts of things about tapes that can’t be proved rationally.
Here’s an insight into his thoughts on a similar subject —
If you believe that no rational evidence is needed to prove the effect of tapes, then you can skip visiting the link I posted.
However, if you believe that rational evidence is needed to prove the effect of tapes, then please do visit the link I linked you to — it’s extremely insightful.
VSS, I thought you weren’t responding to me? You can’t resist my charm, can you?
@ drpetersutphen [May 24, 2012 4:16 pm]
You deserve kindness and compassion. You’re going through a lot of pain. Take care of yourself. Be well. Do what your heart says.
VSS, it seems a little inappropriate to post links of my comments on other blogs to this blog. I am not the subject under discussion, the AOL and SSRS are being discussed. I am not protected by anonymity here which might have been a big mistake on my part. I hope it wasn’t. Disagree with me, denigrate me, make fun of me, but do it based on what I post here, not from other blogs. Thanks, VSS.
@ drpetersutphen [May 24, 2012 5:18 pm]
you ask for evidence
but when evidence about you is revealed
you are not healed
you ask for evidence
but when i give my friend a voice by posting his input
you order people to change the output
your mind is not in your control
look at how it takes its toll
what applies to you doesn’t apply to skywalker
based on nothing you attribute motives to this blog
then you are the one found with motives on blogs
using words to cause a clog
twenty years and you’ve lost your mind
to forces exploitative and unkind
you think tapes have powers
if faith flowers
faith is not based on such flimsy grounds
faith is real, faith astounds
it’s not something to propound on the internet
and hence your tone is soaked in regret
for credibility to stick
credibility has to stand
not through a speech
eloquent and grand
greatness is about humility
and about looking at yourself in the mirror
if you can’t, i shan’t live in terror
that’s a choice you made
for which you paid
please ask your guru to change reality for you
i shall stay with all that is rationally true
this blog is not for misleading people
or ordering people about based on what they don’t know
you are free to speak about what you wish
but please don’t use words to strike a blow
such blows are empty
they only point to your profound pain
at being unable to prove anything rationally
and at being unable to take that strain
the days of AoL are numbered
it is ignorance that AoL has plundered
within months everyone will be aware
this is the truth, it ain’t a dare
when that happens you will be back
to speak of the mighty AoL attack
then your voice will resound
it will be searched, it will be found
i wish you freedom
i wish you luck
to escape from the kingdom
of the quick spiritual buck
when you face yourself
you will discover and know
ordering people about
is about your ego projecting your ego
I posted what I posted to give a voice to my friend in the Bangalore Ashram who is trying to leave AoL as soon as possible. I understand what he’s going through and will empower him whenever he wishes. That’s what friendship is all about. Just because your friend is an emperor of a kingdom of quick spiritual bucks, doesn’t mean my friend is any less. All human beings are equals. Please don’t make the mistake of forgetting that. It won’t help you and it won’t help anyone else. I’m not going to become a bad friend just because you say so. Please ask someone to translate this for you — “tu kaun, mai khamakha”. The people of Lucknow, especially, know what this means.
VSS, when you respond this way, I don’t really know what to say because I don’t fully follow the meaning of your response. As far as I can tell you are giving me the Indian equivalent of the American “F. U.”.
@ drpetersutphen [May 25, 2012 12:28 pm]
I knew you would jump to as preposterous a conclusion as that. That’s why I said in my comment that the people of Lucknow would be able to translate that for you. If you know anything about the city of Lucknow, you would know that the city and its people are about “tehzeeb” which is a combination of being cultured and following etiquette. I learnt that expression in Lucknow. It’s pure Urdu. Kindly do not jump to preposterous conclusions. I have not uttered any profanity. Kindly do not imagine that I have.
@VSS. The closest I can get through Google is ” Who are you and what do I care?” That’s pretty much the same as the American, FU. if this is the wrong translation, what is the correct one?
@ drpetersutphen [May 25, 2012 2:09 pm]
First off, “who are you and what do i care” is not a profanity. If you can’t see the difference between a profanity and a non-profanity, then God help you.
Secondly, I have checked with an Urdu poet who is also proficient in English and he says that the closest translation of “khamakha” is “that which is unnecessary because it is insignificant and purposeless — beyond the scope of reason in a particular context”.
He added that attributing the meaning that you have attributed to the expression “tu kaun mai khamakha” is akin “to calling a poignant opera a rotten egg”. Kindly do not do this. Kindly do not jump to preposterous conclusions.
I would like to know what everybody posting on this blog,actually mean when they use the words ‘kriya tape works’..I think here it mean, technically tape can be heard on a tape recorder or one feels relaxation after listening to it.
When some teachers talk about this tape’s not working, may be they are speaking about it in totally different perceptive..
S.K. is something much much deeper and beautiful than just a tape..
drpetersutphen,would you add on it ?
@ sadhana [May 25, 2012 4:46 am]
“S.K. is something much much deeper and beautiful than just a tape..”
Could you please explain this statement in detail ?
What is the depth of the beautiful experience ?
Can it be explained in rational words or can it only be experienced non-rationally ?
From my experience with AOL teachers, I was told “The kriya tape won’t give people the same effect if it’s not done under an AOL teacher.” I was also told “The kriya tape will make people feel tired if not done by an AOL teacher.” They also said “You are receiving grace when the tape is played.” Obviously, they were not talking about the tape physically working, but rather it’s affect on the people using it.
“S.K. is something much much deeper and beautiful than just a tape..”
I disagree. it’s just a yogic breath exercise with some hyperventilation that is helpful to some, but very dangerous for others.
Jr. That’s a fair assessment based on your experience. Whether “grace” flows or doesn’t flow through the tape is outside of most people’s experience. Also, we’ve talking about grace as if it is a self evident experience. I don’t know if it is. We prObably need to at least attempt to define grace before discussing whether it is present or not.
Quaff the Koolaid Lads! (aka drpetersutphen):
What shines through Guruji is something so profoundly real and wonderful. It transcends all religions and conceptual systems. When you experience it directly it puts everything else in perspective. The Grace of the Divine is quite real. What others say is fine. I can’t judge it. But what happened/happens to me and my wife is quite extraordinary and very, very real. I’m not into mood-making or pretending. Grace is real and true and transcends all karmas. Never doubt it.
Quaff the Koolaid Lads! (aka drpetersutphen):
Anony,I’d love to talk about my experiences of Grace, but I don’t really see this forum as a good place to do that!
You seemed perfectly clear in what you said before and there didn’t seem to be any doubt in your mind as to what Grace is, but now suddenly you’re telling us you want to define it? And you wonder why I accuse you of lying and not being able to get your story straight?
@ The Doctor [May 25, 2012 1:12 pm]
I take it that there is a distinction between “Guru’s grace” and “God’s grace”.
I say so as there are many people in this world who believe in God’s grace but do not believe that Mr. Ravi Shankar is God.
Not believing that Mr. Ravi Shankar is God should not and cannot in anyway mean that one does not believe in God. That would be factually incorrect.
The two things are entirely different.
Also, I would appreciate it very much if you could link me to a post that clarifies this distinction in no uncertain terms — whenever conveniently possible.
@VSS I see God’s grace and the Guru’s grace to be the exact same thing. In fact in traditional scripture it is usually considered this way. Probably the best example of this would be the “Sri Guru Gita,” a conversation between Parvati and Shiva regarding the nature of the Guru.
SSRS has also talked about how the Guru is a “tirtha” to the Divine. He translated this as the english, “dock,” but it seems to more literally mean “shallows.” He said that a Guru connects the disciple to the Divine because like a large boat, it can’t come directly to the shore. A Guru then is the “dock” or “shallows” that functions to relate God to man. This is gurutattva; the principle or function of the guru in creation.
@ drpetersutphen [May 25, 2012 4:01 pm]
To begin with, I’d like to ask you this question:
According to you, is AoL a Hindu organization ?
I ask because you are quoting Hindu scriptures.
@VSS No, I do not consider the AOL to be a Hindu organization. Obviously SSRS is Hindu and uses spiritual concepts drawn from Hinduism to explain many aspects of spiritual development. But he also draws from other religious traditions as well. Also, I like to use the word “Vedic” instead of Hindu because it is more inclusive and transcends the social practices and traditions that makes Hinduism distinct from other religions. Authentic spirituality transcends all social forms and practices, IMHO.
@ drpetersutphen [May 25, 2012 5:44 pm]
Since you’ve been with AoL for more than twenty years, do you happen to be aware of the key concepts — if not all — that Mr. Ravi Shankar has borrowed from other religious traditions — since you say he has? If yes, then what are they?
Secondly, what — in your knowledge — are the key social practices and traditions that make Hinduism distinct from other religions? And, from where have you sourced this knowledge?
Thirdly, are you aware of the historical context of the Vedas? If yes, then what is your source of this awareness?
Last but by no means the least, has Mr. Ravi Shankar ever mentioned Kabir? If so, did he mention if he thought Kabir is a Hindu or not?
@VSS, I couldn’t state any sort of definitive list of spiritual principles enumerated by SSRS. Probably an AOL could list some basic concepts discussed on a basic SK course. I wouldn’t say SSRS has “borrowed” concepts from various religions, but has used concepts from various religions to express universal spiritual principles. But also, SSRS and the AOL is a practical spiritual organization that functions to facilitate the spiritual growth of people. It is not an organization with an “official dogma” of position papers and a highly structured series of conceptual beliefs such as you might find in some Christian churches, for example.
What are the key social practices and traditions that make Hinduism distinct from other religions? That’s a huge question and I am very far indeed from being a religious scholar! I see Hinduism as a very mature religion that has its ultimate origin in the direct experiences of Vedic rishis who cognized the foundational structures of consciousness and their expression in space and time. My understanding of Hinduism/Veda comes from college classes in comparative religions, my own reading over the years and hundreds if not thousands of hours of tapes by Maharishi.
Am I aware of the historical context of the Veda? Of course. You have the scholarly context and the spiritual context. Source of this understanding? My own readings over the years including Maharishi, Ramana Maharishi, Nisgardatta Maharaj, The major Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Uddhava Gita, the Srimat Bhagavadtum, the Devi Purana, The Ramanaya to name a few off the top of my head. Way to many sources to remember.
And yes, I have heard SSRS quote Kabir several times. He did not state if Kabir was Hindu or not. Of what relevance would that be?
Peter : I see Hinduism as a very mature religion that has its ultimate origin in the direct experiences of Vedic rishis who cognized the foundational structures of consciousness and their expression in space and time.
Thank you Peter (regardless of your views on HH-SSRS)! Many Indians like VSS get an education completely devoid of the basic fundamentals of Hinduism and have zero idea what their sacred texts actually contain. They like to strut their “secular” character and shrink from the word “hindu”.
@ drpetersutphen [May 25, 2012 10:07 pm]
You don’t know the any content that AoL has borrowed from other religious traditions — in twenty years.
You don’t know any social practices or traditions that make Hinduism distinct from another religion.
There a crores and crores and crores of Hindus in India who know nothing about the Vedas. Kindly get your facts straight.
You don’t know the historical context of the Vedas. The sources you’ve quoted do not talk about the historical context of the Vedas. For instance, the Ramayana is not a source of history.
The distinction between a historical source and a non-historical source is not clear in your mind — it’s all blurred.
Kabir was a Hindu. He wrote:
“Dukh mein sumiran sab kare, sukh mein kare na koi
Jo sukh mein sumiran kare, toh dukh kahe ko hoi”
“Sumiran” is a Hindu concept — the word has no precise synonym in English — not sure if it does in Urdu or any other language.
More than 20 years — and you don’t know. How sad is that.
Would you say that in your pursuit of enlightenment — which seems to be over 40 years — you’ve found peace through Guru grace?
You’ve had a guru throughout, haven’t you?
Do you recall being in TM since at least the time you did your BA from Maharishi University?
Do you recall using the “n” word to derogatorily refer to African Nationals in a fit of rage in a post? I do because I read it.
Did you by any chance apologize for your comment? No. I didn’t see no apology.
Could you answer one simple question?
Would you call your behaviour on this blog and other blogs graceful or disgraceful?
VSS, I will regard your one simple question to be a Zen koan. In all seriousness, it is excellent. It can be slightly re-phrased as, “Do you consider your behavior to be disgraceful or graceful?” I’ll have to get back to you on it!
@ drpetersutphen [May 26, 2012 4:21 am]
Kindly do not “paraphrase” my words. I chose them with much attention to detail and they mean exactly what they mean.
English is my third language. I consult various people who are proficient in English before posting.
So, please let my simple question remain the simple question that it is. Please don’t twist my words. It’s a humble request.
I’m not asking you the question that you think I am asking you. Kindly do not be delusional and lose the context of my question. It pertains to behaviour on blogs.
VSS, I believe ending our conversation would be the most prudent course of action here. I wish you the best and apologize for any offense my posts may have caused you. The best of luck in all your endeavors.
@ drpetersutphen [May 26, 2012 8:36 am]
If you feel any discomfiture on account of the pain you may have caused me, please don’t. I am not holier than thou.
If I lived in your vicinity, I would present you with a book called The Little Prince. I think it is also freely available on the internet.
Please let me know when you travel to India next. If I can afford to travel to where you are, I shall definitely meet you and gift you a copy of The Little Prince.
I send you my best — which is not much — but that’s all I’ve got as of now.
I’d also like to send you a link to a song that I have been listening to a lot lately. You might wish to hear it with your lovely wife …
Hope you two like this song as much as I do …
@sadhana,
S.K. is something much much deeper and beautiful than just a tape..
That’s the whole point – no it isn’t. But this is what Art of Living brainwash people into believing.
If you’re really sincere in your questions, please read the following:
https://aolfree.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/debunking-gurujis-grace/ – section entitled “Long Kriya”
https://aolfree.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/long-kriya-home-version/
SK is simply a breathing technique and nothing more. The effects are 100% physiological. There is nothing “special” about it. Whatever teachers say, they all believe exactly the same thing about the kriya tape, which is what I’ve already elaborated on in this post, the follow up to this post, and both of the above posts. It is at the core of TTC training.
Also read the following which describes a technique which is almost identical to kriya but without any of the BS:
https://aolfree.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/a-better-and-safer-alternative-to-sudarshan-kriya/
Dr., I’m talking about some sort of working definition of grace for conversational purposes. I have my own thoughts and experiences that I would call grace but what others’ experiences and understanding are will vary. I don’t see the term as something self evident among people.
Doctor,I am not a brainwashed AOL devotee.I’m writing my experience.
I have been reading and following posts on this blog for more than a year.But I didn’t contribute till I had some substantial personal experience.
I had few good experiences with SK even in past.but I was prepared to consider them as divine experiences those happened in relaxed condition of mind.
I had almost come to conclusion that SK is a breathing technique that facilitates transition into meditative state of mind. But recently just few months back I had an experience that changed my opinion. During an advance course,while doing short SK, I happened to have this beautiful experience. I was completely awake and witnessed it while it happened.
Now I am certain that SK is a yogic process. It’s deeper and beautiful than what we feel it is. and It’s not here say. It’s my experience.
I would like to add that I had done nothing special to earn this moment..I’m grateful to Guruji and senior advance course teacher for this experience..I think this is what people would describe as ‘Grace’. In Marathi, we call it ‘Gurukripa’.
I’m still deciding if I should share my experience in detail on this blog. I know,I myself have appealed AOL devotees to share their actual spiritual experiences on this platform. But when I think about it,I realize how difficult it is to do that.
If I ever happen to share my experience here it will be not be because I’m pro AOL or so but because I know SK is beautiful sadhana n I don’t want people to give it up.
Sadhana, you say, “During an advance course,while doing short SK, I happened to have this beautiful experience. I was completely awake and witnessed it while it happened.”
I would like to ask you two quick questions. Don’t you think it’s possible that this experience was yours and not something that had anything to do with the organization and its leader? Do you think it’s possible that these techniques do the same thing regardless of whether one is in AOL?
I ask because I do believe these techniques are capable of creating such experiences. But I also think it has everything to do with the technique and not anything to do with grace. If you continue to have great experiences with SK, then keep practicing if you wish. I’m sure by now you’re aware of the possible dangers of the practice, but not everyone appears to experience the major health issues. Just listen to your body and use caution.
@sadhana,
I had almost come to conclusion that SK is a breathing technique that facilitates transition into meditative state of mind. But recently just few months back I had an experience that changed my opinion. During an advance course,while doing short SK, I happened to have this beautiful experience. I was completely awake and witnessed it while it happened.
Let me assure you, I too had many beautiful experiences with SK during the time which I practiced it. That people have had and continue to have good experiences is not at issue here. What is at issue is the fact that Art of Living condition their followers to believe that these experiences are due to something which they call “grace” which apparently “flows” from SSRS through trained teachers, i.e. those who have undergone TTC, into the participants during kriya. And they further claim that anyone who tries to practice SK whilst listening to the tape without a teacher present will simply not experience these same beautiful effects because the “channel” through which the “grace” is supposed to flow – the teacher – is not be present.
I know for a fact teachers believe this because I have sat in TTC pre-requisite talks where this has been drilled in to everyone present. I have also seen the SK notes which clearly state that this is the case. So I myself actually believed that this was true, and the thing is most people in Art of Living who are more involved than just sitting the occasional course believe this.
But the fact is, practicing SK whilst listening to the tape without a teacher present DOES produce the same beautiful experiences as with the teacher present. In other words, the technique works independently of either the teacher or SSRS. This is a proven fact, and many people have confirmed this including myself.
When I discovered this alarming fact, I realized that everything I had been told about the tape was a complete lie. Everything that teachers are conditioned to believe about “Guruji’s Grace” is therefore also a complete lie. This is something which anyone can discover for themselves if they were able to. But Art of Living make it impossible for anyone to get hold of the tape by inventing this story about the grace, as well as similar stories e.g. that the tape adjusts itself each time so it plays something different depending on who is there, or even the tape is very dangerous if the teacher isn’t there.
If you really are sincere and you want to learn the truth, I encourage you to openly discuss this with any and all teachers that you are in contact with. Tell them that you have learnt all of this about the tape and you want to know what the truth is. Ask them if it is ok to borrow the tape and try it out by yourself and see what they say. But tell them you have heard many other people who are not teachers who have done this and they have had the same experiences. I’d be really interested to hear what they have to say on the matter, so please share with us what you learn.
“One evening after a course, that Sr Teacher forced into our house in the context of volunteers meet, and then started saying, “All this stress management, kriya, satsang are all different reasons for pulling everyone into this path, they are of no significance. The truth is that RS is Sri Krishna himself and this period that we are living now will be talked about for a few thousand years that RS lived at this time…we are very lucky to be close to him”.
I think I can guess who has said this.,This is said in a volunteer meeting..That means people present there were already supposed to be close to Guruji. It’s a heart to heart sharing..If there is any attempt it’s only to tell something deeper and beautiful than just the technique..It’s not to increase devotees.
Teacher may be has perceived Shri Shri as his favorite Krishna and he is sharing it to supposed to be close people..
@ sadhana [May 25, 2012 5:03 am]
Do you think that Mr. Ravi Shankar is an incarnation of Lord Krishna ?
If yes, then is this thought based on rational evidence or is it based on non-rational evidence ?
Advaita philosophy of Hinduism is based on ‘advaita’..There are no two. There is only one consciousness.
I personally feel when Guruji says He is Krishna,he is not talking about krishna as person.He means krishna consciousness.In that case he could be anything…Shiv,Krishna,Devi ma…whatever he chooses to call consciousness.
As a Hindu, we believe God resides within every living being. In that case we all have Krishna within us. We realise it by doing ‘tap’ or ‘sadhana’.
VSS, u seem to be Hindu staying in India. Haven’t you read stories of well known Gurus giving their ‘bhaktas’ darshan in their favorite God’s form. It’s possible.
Why doubt something just because we have not experienced it in our limited life span ?
and yes,spirituality goes beyond common logic and intellect.
Rational mind cannot explain many things that happen. It requires going beyond rational mind.
It’s difficult to express spiritual experiences in words.They can only be
experienced..and they are actual experiences.
There is a beautiful word in Sanskrit and Marathi to describe this..’Anubhuti’..
It’s difficult to translate this word in English.I don’t think there is any
equivalent word. Dr peter and Harshal can write if they know.
w any.
@ sadhana [May 27, 2012 6:46 pm]
Kindly watch the interview in which Karan Thapar interviewed Mr Ravi Shankar as part of the Face-to-Face series.
Please confirm if Mr. Ravi Shankar says the following:
1. I am like everyone else.
2. I do not believe in the unverifiable concept of God — he believes that God is love.
3. Saying “I don’t know” is to be in a frame of mind to seek more knowledge. He gives the example of scientists.
Based on statements that he has made in the interview, I have arrived at the following conclusions.
1. He is like everyone else.
2. He does not believe in an unverifiable concept of God — he believes that God is love.
3. He believes in “I don’t know” so that the process of acquiring knowledge does not stop as is the case with great scientists.
Therefore, can you please explain to me why you are making statements that contradict your Guru’s beliefs ?
On the topic of miracles quoted by his father — he said that miracles happen in everyone’s life and he doesn’t make much of them. He said something to the effect that parents speak of their children that way and laughed with indulgent affection.
He mentioned two instances of consciousness that he might have been past impressions — the story of his conversation with his mother when she was eight months pregnant — and his recollection of scriptures as a young child. That’s it.
He also defined enlightenment as the combination of innocence and intelligence — and on being asked — he said that a mature child would possess these attributes.
He also said that SK is like a poem he wrote. He arrived at it intuitively. It was not a divine revelation.
He also said that all that SK does is that it changes a certain feeling by de-stressing a person. It’s just a stress buster.
Then, why are you spreading things about SK that are not true according to the person who wrote SK as if it were a poem that he wrote ?
Who knows the most about a poem ?
The poet or the reader ?
Also, if it’s a poem, why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that some people loved it and some people didn’t ?
Some people felt happy after reading it — they got inspired — and some people felt disgusted after reading it — it made them sick.
And let me assure you — those who love the poem will continue to love the poem — those who were disgusted will be disgusted by it.
Those who’ve never read the poem can be influenced by a review of either person.
Those who love it but feel for those who have suffered may take a principled stand.
I read the reviews of those who were disgusted and found that their accounts were so heartfelt that I didn’t want to take a chance.
That’s my free will.
It has nothing to do with which country I live in and which religion I follow.
Incidentally, do you know how many sects there are within Hinduism ?
Do you know how many traditionally believe in Gurus and how many don’t?
I have lived in Assam, Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Maharashtra and Delhi. I have traveled to Tami Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, West Bengal, Bihar, Meghalaya and Jharkhand. I can tell you that for every sect that believes in a Guru, there is one that doesn’t. My source of knowledge stems from various believers of various sects within Hinduism.
Where does your knowledge stem from?
Last but not the least, could you please translate the Marathi posts you’ve posted on this blog ? Not all of us know Marathi.
@ sadhana [May 27, 2012 6:46 pm]
Here’s the link to the interview:
http://itv.in/index.php?option=com_video&view=detail&v_id=224&Itemid=13
He says something to the effect that he doesn’t want people to get into “the unverifiable jugglery of concepts”.
“I think I can guess who has said this.,This is said in a volunteer meeting..That means people present there were already supposed to be close to Guruji. It’s a heart to heart sharing..If there is any attempt it’s only to tell something deeper and beautiful than just the technique..It’s not to increase devotees.
Teacher may be has perceived Shri Shri as his favorite Krishna and he is sharing it to supposed to be close people.”
@Sadhana, I am glad he shared his deeper insight! Immediately I woke up from the brain washing. Sadly he is still hooked. I feel sad for him, as he left is high paid job just on RS’s word and living a compromised life arguing with course organisers on reimbursement of that few litres of gasoline…! So sad!
VSS, U are too much caught in words and logic. and too inclined to not to accept any post that seem even little bit pro AOL.
Guruji says different things at different times.One has to also understand context in which they are spoken.
I don’t think I am going to answer questions in this post as there is gross difference in our understanding level. U have not understood at all what I was trying to say. In fact may be you don’t want to understand anything that is written in pro AOL posts..Of course,as you say that’s your free will.
Marathi post was addressed to Harshal. He will understand it. By the way U write that U had stayed in Maharashtra. so you have thorough knowledge about faith and belief system in Maharashtra without even knowing basic Marathi ?
No, I’m not spreading rumors about SK.As I have said, I’m writing my experience,that also after many years of practicing SK.
Isn’t it interesting that you are the one and may be the only one who is writing posts after posts on this blog without any first hand experience of SK or AOL ?
@ sadhana [May 29, 2012 6:23 pm]
“Guruji says different things at different times.One has to also understand context in which they are spoken.”
This just means that he says different things in AoL and different things on TV. So, all the “unverifiable jugglery of concepts is done in AoL” and on TV, he says the exact opposite. Thanks for confirming what I noticed.
And,
“Not all of us know Marathi.”
does not mean
I don’t know Marathi.
Besides, I don’t need to know Marathi. I don’t know the language of every state I’ve lived in. I’ve also studied the Greek Civilization and the French Revolution and Mohenjodaro and Harappa.
That doesn’t mean I know Greek, French, and the Harappan Script which has so far not been deciphered by anyone.
You’ve got to be absolutely bizarre to suggest that.
By the way, I’ve also studied the History of China and Japan.
And, I don’t know Chinese and Japanese.
Do you never think before making statements?
Making unverifiable statements about AoL is one thing but how can you make unverifiable comments about everything?
And, you are full of hatred about my posts on this blog.
Well, you can think what you like.
My home was wrecked by AoL. I can prove it in a court of law. The day I can afford it I definitely will. I’m going to file a writ in the Supreme Court and I’ll invite you to sit in the audience.
Plus, I believe in all the heartfelt posts on this blog. I learn from the experiences of others. I read about SK and didn’t try it. Better get used to that. With the growing reach of the internet — this is going to happen a lot. People will investigate AoL before joining it — and guess what — many of them won’t join it. Learn to “accept people and situations as they are”. Learn some “compassion”. Learn some “love”. That’s what your guru says AoL is all about — then AoL members show up on this blog and act out of hatred.
After Harshal said that he is a khatriya, why didn’t you say that caste is no justification for misbehaving?
Why didn’t you say that just because people are not in AoL doesn’t mean they are “adharmi” or non-believers ?
When he said he can’t bear it, why didn’t you say that love and compassion are the way in AoL ?
And, why didn’t you say it in English ?
To me, you said so much, but to him, you said a little and lapsed into silence. Why? You are completely biased and prejudiced. I have seen your true colours now.
I have never used profanity on this blog and I will never use profanity on this blog. Can you say the same about Harshal ?
I am not in AoL. I am not selling AoL to people telling them that it’ll make them better human beings.
But you are.
Then, who is an adharmi? The one who abuses in the name of AoL or the one who has never abused AoL on this blog.
Think.
The answer is obvious.
Have you seen this film, Sadhana ?
Would you say this film is anti AoL ?
Jr., yes,I know and I accept that It’s my experience. But then It should happen every time when I do kriya or it should have also happened in other advance courses.
What I have observed is potential of each advance course teacher differs when you consider it in terms of level of experiences participants have.I personally feel there are levels even in advance courses. Teachers sense potential of participants and make certain changes. may be that decides level or type of experience..
I think also the total time and type of pranayama used alters the result.
and lastly Teachers own dedication and sadhana must be influencing the results in participants.This is the reason I give credit of my experience to My Teacher.
I give credit to Guruji because ultimately HE is the reason for all of us to learn this particular sadhana.
Yes,I agree and I have thought about it before that all sadhana practices those go along same line must be giving same effect.
Thanks for your advice. I will follow that.
In fact I have observed one interesting fact which I would like to share. For years I felt very peaceful and relaxed after kriya. So much that I looked forward to do it daily. After a particular good advance course, I started having trouble sleeping if I practiced it in evening. As days passed I started feeling restless and uneasy instead of feeling good. I tried to find reasons. I was going through a very difficult period in personal and professional life during that time and I tried to blame it on that. when I came across this blog, I identified same symptoms in some authors. After few days of reading I decided to stop doing kriya and observed what happens. I seemed to be better.
Even after this in my mind I wanted to do kriya. I definitely had few out of the world experiences in past. and I had faith in Guruji and path. I was confused and miserable. I went to this advance course with all this background. It was my last resort. There was a good chance I would have never done kriya again.
It turned out to be one of the path breaking or rather showing course. I got totally different perceptive about some meditations. After this particular experience of SK, all my SK associated uneasiness,restlessness disappeared.
To me it seems that all this is a part of our spiritual journey when we practice yogic processes as sadhana. We just have to overcome it with practice and proper guidance. May be that’s the reason it is advised to repeat advance courses regularly.
I will be careful and that’s why I tell others also to be careful when they discuss issue of doing long kriya without teacher.
Doctor, I will discuss this with some teachers I know as you suggest. But I won’t be trying it alone myself. I won’t take that risk. I have got something precious after months or a year of turmoil. I don’t want to lose it.
I completely believe that long Sk has to be supervised for reasons known to Guruji. I don’t know about ‘Grace’ part but I think presence of teacher is must for safety of participants.
Sadhana,
It probably should be supervised by someone, I agree with you on that. But numerous ex-AOL full time teachers have already stated on this blog that there really is no instruction they were given when something goes wrong. I can’t really see the value in having someone “supervise” long kriya if they have no idea what to do if someone has a serious adverse reaction. Also, the way sudarshan kriya is taught, there are numerous ways in how teachers teach it. Some teachers encourage the students to breathe very forcefully and loud, while others don’t allow this and force everyone to breathe soft. To be honest, I don’t think it makes any difference from a spiritual level or safety level if an AOL teacher is not present.
You also said something above I don’t quite understand. Could you explain this in a little more detail when you said:
“It turned out to be one of the path breaking or rather showing course. I got totally different perceptive about some meditations. After this particular experience of SK, all my SK associated uneasiness,restlessness disappeared.”
I’m just trying to understand what you meant by this.
I also experienced restlessness after doing kriya. That was one of many symptoms I stupidly ignored when I should have been listening to my body first.
sadhana, I appreciate that you share your views and experiences, it really helps if we can have real discussion with the intention of understanding each other and everything. Instead some others are intent on just fighting and defending, it’s a waste of time for everyone.
Now, I can’t speak for others posting in this blog, but as for myself, I do recognize the fact that SK and AoL courses has genuinely helped many people in terms of improved health, lucidity of perception, becoming less aggressive, helping with spiritual realization, etc., although we must also admit that it has been problematic to some. If you think SK has been helpful to you, I encourage you to continue. But please also continue with your regular everyday sadhana and meditation so that don’t become too dependent on the weekly long kriya. The way I look at SK (specifically the tape-kriya) is like a form of therapy. When you are very down and out, a few doses of long kriya can help you. For some doing it just once or twice is enough, some may have to take it for a year or two, but you can’t be taking forever. It helps lift yourself, but you have to quickly thank and learn to stand on your feet steady and make sure you don’t fall again. The experiences you get out of SK, meditation and silence are very real, but don’t confuse the raft with the shore, ultimately you have to go beyond all spiritual practices to a point where you realize spirituality is your very nature.
My concern is more about the organizational aspect of the AoL. Even as you continue with your spiritual sadhana, you have to ask yourself these questions
* Does your association with AoL make you less tolerant towards other paths? Do you look at people not associated with AoL as unlucky people?
* Do you go about canvassing people to do AoL classes? if so have you seen people running away at the very sight of you?
* After joining AoL, do you feel any lessening of intimacy with family members or friends who are not much amused with AoL?
If your answer is yes to any of these questions, you have to introspect, otherwise it’s just fine.
Also, you spend quite some money whenever you take AoL courses and you give it with the belief that it’s going for a good cause. Isn’t it important to try and find out if that money is really used for charity as promised?
@drpetersutphen
“Dr., I’m talking about some sort of working definition of grace for conversational purposes. I have my own thoughts and experiences that I would call grace but what others’ experiences and understanding are will vary. I don’t see the term as something self evident among people.”
Why exactly do you need a “working definition of grace”? From everything you’ve already told us, you were perfectly happy to talk about “grace” as if it were something self-evident and very real. And this is in fact one of the fundamental problems with Art of Living: that they talk about “grace”, specifically the “grace” of SSRS, as something which is self-evident and which everyone associated with him experiences to some extent. That this “grace” is something which, the closer one becomes to SSRS the more “grace” they experience in their lives. This is something which everyone in Art of Living is eventually indoctrinated to believe, and something which your posts have shown you strongly believe, in spite of all your clear attempts to downplay this which you’re clearly doing here.
But you see, this is the very thing which most of us here realize is complete and utter BS, nothing more than a mechanism to control and enslave devotees. This is what a good majority of the posts we’ve made on this blog are saying. And when we’ve given all the evidence to support our reasoning, you have deliberately shunned it.
So I ask you, what exactly is the point, if any, which you’re trying to make? As far as I can see, whether you have been officially sanctioned or not, you appear to be here to perform some kind of damage control. But given that you persist in lying and that you have avoided answering so many legitimate questions which I and others have asked of you, let me tell you in no uncertain terms, you are failing dismally even in this task. At the very least if you started to answer truthfully and stopped trying to dig yourself deeper into the hole you’ve already dug for yourself, people, including myself, might start to believe you. Until that happens, I’m going to call you out on each and every time you lie here.
@ The Doctor [May 26, 2012 2:46 pm]
Even I want to know the point he’s trying to make. He simply does not answer questions. And, he twists the words of others. Worst of all, he apologizes and then he heckles. It seems to me that because more and more people are reading this blog, AoL is in a state of panic. It’s still not clear whether he has been explicitly instructed by AoL to post here or not.
But what is clear is that he is doing his best to reduce this blog to a forum where AoL’s supremacy is established on the grounds of “knowledge” and “Guru’s Grace”. He said that there’s no difference between “Guru’s Grace” and “God’s Grace” — which is another way of saying that he sees no distinction between Mr. Ravi Shankar and God. His objectives are the same as those who spread stories that Mr. Ravi Shankar is God. Through him — AoL is spreading stories of “Guru Grace” on this blog and he heckles anyone who questions the issue. The same tactics that are being deployed to mislead people in AoL are being deployed on this blog.
The same cycle repeats itself over and over again — he pretends he is in a conversation — takes it to Guru Grace and knowledge and then if someone doesn’t agree or asks questions — he heckles. And, often when he is caught red-handed, he sheds crocodile tears and plays the victim to the hilt.
@VSS I assure you I’m not being instructed by AOL central headquarters! Anything I say is of my own accord and opinion. Also, I have answered many of your direct question. You may not like the answers, but I can’t do much about that. You also ask so many questions in a post that it is almost impossible to respond to all of them. A person would be writing all day.
Dr. You have to stop repeating that I’m lying If you want me to respond to you. If you don’t want me to post here, then say so. But harassing me with accusations of lying and being evasive doesn’t lend itself to any conversation. Please certainly “call” me on things that you think I am doing (such as lying and being evasive) because that is not my intent, but please do not do it in a way that pretty much terminates any conversation.
A working definition of grace is needed to talk about an experiential phenomenon. I have experienced what I would clearly call grace in my association with SSRS. Others may have experienced something different that they still would call grace. Others have experienced nothing at all. It is both my good experiences with SK and these grace experiences that keep me involved with SSRS. I don’t think grace should be bandied about as a concept to motivate certain behaviors. In this we agree. For you there is no such thing as grace in AOL or through SSRS. Is that correct? If that is correct, then why should grace be discussed? It will just devolve to a “yes it is” /”no it isn’t” discussion.
@ drpetersutphen [May 26, 2012 5:55 pm]
Questions can be answered in any amount of time — I have never stated a time limit — questions on posts that were posted two years ago can be answered today — so please stop making all sorts of insinuations.
If you can’t stop heckling, then I request you to please stop posting on this blog. So, what’s is going to be — will you stop heckling or will you stop posting on this blog ?
Jr and seer..Thanks for your comments..I didn’t write in detail about my experiences as I am not sure if such experiences should be shared..
“It turned out to be one of the path breaking or rather showing course. I got totally different perceptive about some meditations. After this particular experience of SK, all my SK associated uneasiness,restlessness disappeared.”
I will try to express my view in little detail.
Many of the Yog sadhanas deal with life force or ‘prana’ and ‘Kundalini’, the surpentile life force that is supposed to be in dormant state in ‘Muladhar chakra’.
When ‘Kundalini’ is awakening,a sadhak exhibits a variety of symptoms.
I personally feel and that is my experience that S.K. is one of such yog sadhana. It’s a breathing technique and breath is connected to ‘prana’.
I feel that as we keep practicing SK,our different ‘prana’ levels start getting affected which could be the reason for temporary problems experienced by many of us.
I remember, in initial years,I used to feel some strong vibrations in my body during SK that used to go off during relaxation period following it.I had told two advance course teachers about it who had said,’It happens.Let it be.’
I remember reading in one of the posts on this blog that Guruji had told the author that ‘It will pass off.’
I understand what it means as it passed off for me.
I feel that when life forces got properly aligned or synchronized as experienced by me during SK,all related problems stopped. Till the time it happens for each sadhak,everyone has to bear whatever happens..
Avadhoot baba Shivanandaji of Shivyoga has shared his experience of doing one of the sadhana in ‘Dashmahavidya’. He has described terrible suffering he has felt during sadhana till that particular sadhana was completed or fulfilled.
So we should expect this all can happen and wait for it to pass off..Only it should be brought to the notice of teachers preferably senior advance course teachers..
About my comments on advance course meditations…I personally feel they may not be only simple meditations but some of them might be age old yogic processes. In India advance courses are advertised as ‘Come and Experience.’ It’s actually true. Guruji or none of the advance course teachers speak in details about SK or any of the advance course meditations.It’s only told in the course that these processes should not be practiced at home.
Guruji has been giving us something complex that is simplified in the form of a course. HE does not tell us what to expect. ‘Expectation reduces joy’…It’s really a joyous experience when one realizes one is bang onto something very big.
Guruji wants us to explore, to realize on our own rather than to imagine or compare after reading books.
I myself used to wonder why HE ignores some sincere questions during Mahasatsanga,but now I know whatever we need to know we realize it in time.
I have done several advance courses before. but it’s only in last 2-3 I started understanding that same meditations can give different experiences to people at different spiritual levels.That means some of them might go through courses without any actual spiritual experience. As we repeat courses,one starts realizing that processes we completed thinking them as mere exercises can give stunning results.It takes time..For me it took quite some time.
I remember Guruji saying in one of the talk a sentence that meant,’For some it might take one course,for others it might take 20 advance courses, but there will be change in all.’..
It’s just matter of time and patience.
I shouldn’t write much in detail as to experience per say as it may affect the very purpose of not giving much information about what exactly happens during the course.
But I can just say that I have got glimpses of something very intimate and beautiful during one of the processes that I had done many times before without having such ‘strong and solid’ experience. That means repeating the advance at regular intervals does elevate you as Guruji says..
About the cost involved,I like to think of it as cost for course par say rather than to think it as donation for social work.
@sadhana June 3 2:14pm Wrong Sadana, I did my basic course years ago, and knew Ravi Shankar quite personally. Have you even met him? Sat with him? Lived with him? Travelled with him? He is not a good person. If you don’t believe me, go live with him and find out.
@Anonymous – Here again you offer only your conclusion that SSRS is ‘not a good person’, but you provide no actual first-hand experiences in your many years of personal travels with him that might enable anyone else to form their own opinion. It is suspiciously convenient for you to claim that it is to protect your identity. But honestly, you are not helping anyone by continually shouting “Don’t follow him! He’s a bad man! I know, because he’s really bad!”
JuJu, I suggest that you read Klim’s blog, and this entire blog. You will see many stories of ruined lives, spoiled faith, and deception on the part of your guru. Or, if you don’t like to, then why be here? You obviously love Ravi Shankar and Art of Living? Why soil yourself by even looking at what’s posted here if you are so sure it’s untrue? You are the one who needs to be suspected — why are you even here? To try to convince visitors not to listen? To boost AOL sales? To try to figure out who all these people are, so you can get the coveted ‘private meeting’ with your Guruji? The court, according to links posted on this blog, has ruled against Art of Living, in all but one area. Identities will not be revealed. A law blogspot posted more on this case, stating that the judge felt it would have a “chilling effect” on free speech of people who wished to post here against Art of Living. Obviously, thinking people who can read, like the judge, and who still have unbrainwashed minds, understand the methods of intimidation used against people who post their own, true experiences of a cult like AOL. If the judge doesn’t require the blogmasters to reveal their identities because it’s seen as unsafe, why would I reveal mine to you through more specific examples? You see, when I left Art of Living, I regained my thinking capacity, so I see through you. There was a time when I might have been brow beaten into doing what you are asking. But not today. Good luck to you on your “spiritual path” if you really think that being a watchdog for Art of Living and Ravi Shankar’s reputation is at all spiritual. Of course, it may just be your paid position, so you may just be doing your job. I don’t want to know who you are. I couldn’t care less. Why are you interested in my identity? If you believe me, and all the other hundreds posting here to be liars, then I have free advice for you if you are not indeed being paid by AOL, or doing watchdog ‘seva’ for RS — go and live with Ravi Shankar. Get really close. Watch all the senior teachers when they are not teaching. Observe for yourself. Do this for a year. Be sure you are in close proximity to him and them daily. Privately. Find out. Then, if you still have a brain and a heart, come back to this blog and post your findings. Requirements of this ‘seva’ assignment? (this is seva for your soul, no one else) — you must be in close contact and have daily private meetings with your master. You must ask questions about anything that troubles you that you might see or experience. Let me know how this all goes. (I’ve posted this advice to a couple of other people here — I wonder if they are doing it?) 🙂
@ Anonymous [June 3, 2012 1:19 pm]
Please be cautious. Please don’t reveal your identity. We all know what happened to Skywalker and Klim. And, please freely express yourself and offer suggestions. There are many people who read this blog. Some may be helped, some may not. Those who don’t will simply not read your words. Those who do will continue to be empowered. I belong to the second category and request you to continue to post your thoughts, insights, and suggestions freely. This is also your right — by law.
Yes, VSS, this “juju” person is an AOL shill, obviously. Wanting to know who “anonymous” is. And of course I would never reveal any personal details here knowing what happened to the blogmasters. A lawsuit is not a small thing. I wonder why Juju doesn’t wonder why his benificent master Ravi Shankar needed to sue people who were experssing their opinions and statings facts of what they observed people doing around them in Art of Living? Of course, AOL lost the suit. But why would any truly spiritual person need to sue a blog for stating that they didn’t like someone who treated them badly? Someone great would just say “what do I care”. Also, I wonder if Juju knows that the point at which the blogmasters were taken to court by Art of Living and Ravi Shankar, there were less than 500 hits on the blogs, according to another blog I recently saw, which is very small, but posting links since 2010. Thanks for the warning VSS, and don’t worry, I have too much experience with the thugs on the phone and at the door and all the levels of harressment they can produce to reveal my identity.
@Anonymous and @VSS – I am no shill sent here by AOL, and I don’t want you to reveal your true identity. I want to know the facts upon which you have based your conclusions, so that I can make up my own mind. Evidence of my earnest desire to know the truth is my willingness to read these accounts. Otherwise, I might have rejected your claims without the use of my own intellect. As it stands, you have provided little more than expressions of anger and frustration without any facts.
@ JuJu [June 8, 2012 10:54 pm]
I don’t see any comments from you on all the posts that are recommended. Instead, all I see are offensive insinuations and attempts to brand posts as “expressions of anger and frustration”.
Kindly read all the posts that have been recommended. If you land up on one thread and start throwing random tantrums, no one will take you seriously.
Now, I hope you will not be attempting to discredit posts and posters without reading the recommended posts.
If you are truly interested in facts, you will be reading the recommended posts and seeking answers to issues raised therein.
So, what’s it going to be — will you be reading the most important posts in this blog or will you be attempting to demolish the credibility of people who post here ?
@ The Doctor
In addition to the recommended posts, if you feel someone who is earnestly seeking the truth needs to read some other posts, kindly post the links to those posts in response to this post — to help Juju. Thank you.
@VSS – if I thought for a minute that “Juju” (who has also been posting under the pseudonym of “Wilson”) was in any way sincere then I would happily post links to other posts which I feel may “help” him/her.
But it’s obvious from all the posts that’s not why he/she is here, otherwise he/she might actually sound sincere and not have to resort to using different pseudonyms to try to attack this blog from multiple angles.
@sadhana
Your experiences with meditations and SK may be wonderful. Of course , this is bound to happen as RS has lifted all his knowledge from Pantanjali yoga sutras and other ancient scriptures, which are Quiet powerful ,even if practiced otherwise.
The issue is not the meditations, but RS claiming every thing to be his own when in reality it isn’t.
Also ,doing courses with RS and AOL is very rosy and cozy . You are left with a beautiful experience , cause that is what they want you to see.
Just go a little deeper into Aol and move with RS and his entourage , and you ‘ll be sick soon and would be left searching for human values and spirituality.( Which they so promote).
He anonymous, It’s not called lifting knowledge…It’s passed through generations..This is how it has reached us.
It belongs to everybody..and just by reading ‘Patanjali yogasutra’ or ancient scriptures,one will not be able to achieve the Ultimate..
Everybody claiming that SK has caused them physical or mental problems, please read this site..it’s Wikipedia about ‘Kundalini syndrome’ Uttam has mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome
Please verify your symptoms with it. Also one can check search ‘kundalini awakening’ and see other sites those give symptoms of ‘Kundalini awakening’..
Sadhana, please understand once and for all that there is no connection between kundalini awakening and the practice of SK. In the 30 years of SK practice by ‘millions’, show me one person who has reached the state of ‘Kundalini awakening’.
what is this kundalini ? what will happen after kundalini gets awakened ? Is there any person currently living whose kundalini is now in awakened state ?
Right on the money Dayalu.
I heard this mentioned so many times when I was in AoL, that SK was awakening kundalini, that RS could awaken kundalini, and that even doing Sri Sri yoga could awaken kundalini!
But when I did further research into kundalini after leaving AoL, I came to realize that any and all talk of kundalini in AoL is complete and utter BS, by people who don’t have the faintest idea what kundalini is or how to awaken it. It’s just another device they use to brainwash people into thinking that the high they experience from SK (aka hyperventilation) results in some sort of spiritual awakening inside them. But as Dayalu pointed out, show me someone who has been practicing SK for any amount of time who is showing even the slightest signs (and these are well-documented) of someone whose kundalini has been awakened.
Sadhana, If all the negative side effects are “kundalini syndrome” why does AOL and Ravi Shankar and all the teachers not warn people that this could happen before they take the course? Why not just spell it out “you could get kundalini syndrome, and it would be dreadful….” They don’t say anything like that. I personally don’t see how someone who is a senior teacher for 20 years could be having kundalini syndrome for the whole 20 years, do you? But the SK and Ravi Shankar are clearly affecting the minds and actions of some of the teachers — they are rude, irrational, childish, paranoid, etc., many times. So are they all having this kundalini syndrome? Is that why so many of them are so sick? Does the syndrome, according to you, last for decades? Because their behavior is the same, or worse.
Anon,search ‘kundalini’ on net.You will get all information.
Anonymous..may be they should tell it earlier. But as it seems a large number of people are going through courses without actually experiencing it. so telling everyone and scaring them may be is considered pointless. They are at least getting benefits of course points,meditations etc. (may be at subtle level some other benefits.)
As I know it,there is a big class in India who would hesitate to enroll in a class that claims to awaken ‘kundalini’. I am 100 % among one of such people.. so because of this policy of not telling,all these people are doing SK without being scared.
Then there could be a class among these people who might say we didn’t feel our kundalini awakened as claimed by this course and feel betrayed..so may be it’s better not to say anything initially..One who has to know will know it anyway.
But yes,may be for people who have developed symptoms,it should be discussed..Again may be if one has complete faith and surrender as Uttam has pointed out, it happens in many ways other than actual conversation. We just have to be open for that.
Other thing is in last 9 years,nobody told me anything about SK and kundalini..I realized it during one advance course and another course after few years confirmed it..of course I had at least some background information on kundalini so as to know it.
I can’t name senior teachers who have reached the last stage or whose ‘kundalini’ is in fully awakened state as I don’t know them personally. But I think nobody who is mature enough is going to say that themselves.
But I’m sure there are definitely few of them who are at different stages..That is something we experience during advance or satsang..Spiritual level or overall experience of satsang/courses with such people is totally different..
It takes thousands of years of tap-sadhana with faith to achieve such states..30 years is too short period to assess it.
By the way,I don’t know who is suffering for 2o years with such symptoms..At least here we don’t know any of this.
Doctor.how do you know the central tenents of TTC…when you haven’t done it.
@Harshal – since you’ve recently been trying to post quite a lot under Anonymous and various other aliases, then you have absolutely no right to moan about anyone else here posting anonymously. If you do, that just makes you a hypocrite. Which most of us knew already based on everything else you’ve written.
To answer your question, when I was preparing for my TTC, I was in contact with many teachers who were giving me as much “help” as possible to prepare for TTC. This and so many other things were discussed, and they were even discussed by Rishiji in closed sessions in which only TTC aspirants were allowed to participate. Most of what I was told in these sessions has since been confirmed by the notes and other materials which were leaked earlier, and by the various accounts of many ex-teachers posting here.
The trouble with cult “secrets” is that sooner or later when enough people realize that they’re just a load of BS employed to exploit and manipulate the masses, these “secrets” will then get out and everyone will realize what a sham the whole thing is. Well, maybe not everyone, a small handful seem to be desperately clinging on to their precious beliefs in spite of all the glaring contradictions and falsehoods that we have highlighted.
Sadhana ,
what do you mean by kundalini awakening ? When I search net i see things like “When it reaches the brain, the Yogi is perfectly detached from the body and mind; the soul finds itself free”
What is this “soul becoming free” ??
Or what is “kundalini awakening” in your terms ?
@ sadhana [June 8, 2012 4:22 am]
I thank you infinitely for the post. You’ve clearly stated many things for all of us here.
You’ve said:
— so telling everyone and scaring them may be is considered pointless —
This, to me, is an extremely negative and cynical view of human beings. There’s an underlying assumption here about innumerable people and a lack of faith in their innate intelligence. Such an attitude towards people is not only arrogant and judgmental but disastrous. The fact that you’re using this argument to justify keeping people in the dark and deceiving them as well as deceiving yourself about the righteousness of keeping people in the dark is saddening beyond measure.
You’ve said:
— As I know it,there is a big class in India who would hesitate to enroll in a class that claims to awaken ‘kundalini’. —
This clearly shows that you think if people are not convinced easily, it’s okay to manipulate them. You forget the basic principle of respecting human beings once again. You may have enjoyed being initiated into SK through deception, but this obviously does not apply to those who were manipulated into SK and suffered. Again, this shows a complete lack of respect for human beings. Not telling people honestly what they might be in for just to enroll them for courses is simply not justified — it’s pure deception.
You’ve said:
— Then there could be a class among these people who might say we didn’t feel our kundalini awakened as claimed by this course and feel betrayed.. —
Again, you are completely disrespectful towards human beings. Honesty lies in telling people something to the effect that “try SK, you kundalini may or may not be awakened”. Not telling people that is dishonesty — especially if — as you and Uttam have observed — some people suffer what you describe as “the kundalini syndrome”. Why can’t you simply tell people that — look there is this practice called SK and you might just experience problems — and then give them all the information about the kundalini syndrome. How can you justify lying and deception? The very fact that you think it’s okay to lie and deceive people shows that you have absolutely no regard for human beings.
You’ve said:
— But yes,may be for people who have developed symptoms,it should be discussed..Again may be if one has complete faith and surrender as Uttam has pointed out, it happens in many ways other than actual conversation. We just have to be open for that. —
Yet again, you express a complete disregard for human beings. You think that even if people have symptoms, “maybe” there should be a proper discussion. You’re still not sure if people should be subjected to deception or not? Is this, in any manner, a humane perspective? Is there any compassion in your words? For God’s sake, we’re talking about human beings. It seems that you don’t even have mercy for those who have suffered.
And, again, on the subject of “complete faith and surrender”, why can’t you tell people that it would take “complete faith and surrender” including never asking any questions about Mr. Ravi Shankar’s techniques and behaviour? Why on earth do you think it’s okay to lie and to deceive and to manipulate people into joining the Art of Living without sharing with them the details of the complete picture?
Do you know something, Sadhana? We all know all that you’ve mentioned. And, therefore, what emerges from your comment is the fact that you think lies, deception, and manipulation are okay, and some of us don’t agree with you. Some of us believe in treating human beings with respect. So, as far as facts are concerned, I don’t disagree with you at all. But, as far as deceiving people is concerned, I disagree with you vehemently. Treating people like this is a sin. This is classic anti-humanity behaviour. After this post of yours, I hope you will not be claiming that you respect human beings. If you do, that’ll be a complete lie. Also, after this post, I hope you will not be claiming that AoL is a humanitarian organization, because that’ll be a complete lie too.
What you can claim is that AoL deceives, manipulates, and lies to people — does not give them proper information at any stage — and you think it’s okay to do that.
Sadana, That is exactly my point — you don’t know. Because those senior teachers who are rude, abusive, manipulative, with terrible behaviors, and many of whom have been with Art of Living since the 80s or 90s, and are in positions of power, smile on the outside to the public, but if you get too close you find out they are simply awful people with bad behavior. The fact that you don’t know about it doesn’t make it not true. Many of these people are frequently very ill and say that they have been ill for a very long time. Many of them do not practice the SK anymore because they found it made them worse (or so they told me). You had claimed that the person posting that SK made them sick was having kundalini awakening. But his experience of being sick from it seems to be rampant among even senior teachers, some of whom have been with Ravi Shankar for years and year. That is why I asked the question if you thought that all of them are having kundalini awakening. You avoided my point: There is no kundalini awakening going on here — just some fake spirituality. And if there is kunadalini awakening going on, and it’s giving these horrendous experiences and behaviors, someone needs to warn each and every person before they sign up for the course. Don’t you think that’s fair? They should be allowed to decide for themselves. The very fact that the senior teachers’ actions and health are kept from the public is suspect.
@ JuJu
“SK works by massaging the hypothalamus through rythmic stimulation of the nerve endings in the septum. This produces an holistic beneficial hormonal balancing effect for most practitioners.”
can you please give us a reference of the scientific journal where this piece of stupendous research been published.
Most like this stupendous hypothesis has originated due to stimulation of nerve endings in your hypothalamus
The doctor’s name is Richard Brown. He conducted detailed research into the effect of SK on the vagus nerve, which controls the parasympathetic nervous system. He compared the results to similar experiments on electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve to treat depression. He found that SK was more effective. The results of his study are Available online here: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2005.11.189
Sorry JuJu, but I couldn’t find any reference in Dr Brown’s notes where he mentions “SK works by massaging the hypothalamus through rythmic stimulation of the nerve endings in the septum.” Where did you get that from? And is any of this actually taught to teachers during TTC, because it doesn’t seem to be public knowledge?
Really is that what happen during SK.
Think i missed that part on TTC and it was not in the Kriya notes.
So much for the door to infinity
.
Anoop, I hope your query is genuine..search wikipedia for ‘kundalini’ ..It’s explained very nicely.
‘soul becoming free’..that’s what ‘moksha’ is..
if you are genuinely interested read Paramhansa Yoganand’s comments on ‘Bhagavad Gita’..’God talks with Arjuna’..There are 2 volumes.
In this HE has given meaning of ‘Bhagavad Gita’ from yogic point of view. In the beginning chapters HE explains very nicely what Sushumna,Ida,Pingala, Kundalini means..
Anoop, Paramhansa Yoganand has explained it very nicely..Please read it on following site.
http://www.yogananda.com.au/pyr/pyr_kundalini1.html
awesome reply, VSS. great job!
Sadhana, by accepting that yes, some people may be harmed, and you yourself also struggled for a while, you really have proved what the blog has been saying for a while. That some people are harmed, that art of living should take responsibility for that. and some people, who were conned into taking the course with only promises of well being, good health, increased prolactin (yes, i’ve seen that in some flyers, go figure), mental peace etc etc do not appreciate their kundalini being awakened without warning?
consider this scenario: you mentioned an advance course before which you were quite disturbed, and things fell into place suddenly for you after this course. you found peace you said, by the grace of the guru, and found something precious. i consider this a pure stroke of luck for you. what if, in your precarious state of mind, instead of this happening, you had gone some other way, and gone mad, like the previous posters wife? it has happened to other people, why are you sure it won’t happen to you? do you think you are somehow special? i’ve seen a nice course participant go temporarily crazy after silence was broken in the advance course. he took everyone’s footwear to the top of the roof and threw them down on the particants. when everything was thrown, he climbed down, took them back again on the roof, and started again. he is not fortunately permanantly damaged, as far as I know, but still.
you think you are arguing in a sane fashion, but your mind is in a dissociative state. look that up on the web.
@Anonymous
— He has some siddhis yes, like reading people’s minds
What makes you think he has some siddhis. I have never come across his ‘magical powers’ any time.
@Sadhana
“As I know it,there is a big class in India who would hesitate to enroll in a class that claims to awaken ‘kundalini’”
There is no class anywhere in the world which claims to awaken Kundalini and has shown successful results.
If you take the ill-effects of SKY as Kundalini awakening, then you can also say that patients undergoing treatments in hospital as Kundalini awakened people.
“then you have absolutely no right to moan about anyone else here posting anonymously”
Oh common… really? . I was travelling this morning so made that post from my phone. Do I have to put my name all the time?
Other-times I have posted from proxy ip because you have been blocking my comments.
.
It is ‘NOT’ a central tenet of TTC. You cannot know unless you have done TTC. Most of the teachers I have asked confirmed this.
What material here shows that it is a central tenet of TTC?
Pathetic excuse. You could have entered your name, it would have added hardly any time to your post. You can post anonymously if you so wish, but if you do you can’t complain when others do the same.
The SK notes clearly state that the tape won’t work without the grace of the guru, and this is mentioned very early on in the notes. Therefore, this is central to the teachings.
Ronin paraphrased it perfectly in this comment:
“The grace thing is actually clearly mentioned in the kriya notes and actually the fist paragraph and should realy serve as a red flag. It is amazing how indoctrinated this whole organization is.
As I said in my previous comment, EVERY teacher I was in contact with knows this. So stop lying about the teachers you claim to know who have confirmed that this isn’t the case, either you are lying or they have all been lying to you.
“Sorry JuJu, but I couldn’t find any reference”
This reference should give you some consolation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17888067
The link you posted doesn’t mention it anywhere, unless it’s hidden away somewhere. The only references I could find were on Art of Living sites, for example:
Source: http://www.artoflivingfaridabad.org/research.html
“Sudarshan Kriya according to Dr Brown might activate thalamus and hypothalamus via vagal input.” (Emphasis mine)
This is a far cry from Juju’s original statement “Use your common sense. SK works by massaging the hypothalamus through rythmic stimulation of the nerve endings in the septum.” which was stated as if it were scientific fact.
But then what about all the “grace” that we’ve been told so much about? Where does that come up in the scientific research that has been carried out?
@ The Doctor [June 9, 2012 10:01 am]
— But then what about all the “grace” that we’ve been told so much about? Where does that come up in the scientific research that has been carried out? —
Thank you for raising this issue. While on the one hand people like Juju / Wilson talk about the “scientific” dimension of SK, people like Uttam and Sadhana talk about “kundalini awakening”.
All of us need clarity on whether SK is a “scientific” process or a “spiritual” process.
If there is no clarity, then, this will also be another contradiction that is planted intentionally with the objective of manipulating readers / followers.
Further, this still doesn’t justify all that Sadhana said about AoL intentionally deceiving people. In fact, if people are not aware of this “scientific research”, then it only proves that they are kept in the dark. They are not made aware of the possibility of SK not suiting their physiology — just as they are not informed that “complete surrender” of intellect is needed for SK or AoL to be effective. How is it fair to not inform people that there could be physical as well as mental discomfort because of SK and AoL?
First they don’t inform people. Then, when people suffer, they try to silence people. How can they possibly justify this behaviour?
LOL @ Harshal — at least we know why you are doing SK — LOL!!
There is a definite pattern going on here. It seems that whenever a post appears to question the facts underlying any of the positions taken here, then the poster is attacked and branded a shill for AOLF, or the poster is deemed to be “brainwashed”. Anything to avoid providing actual facts.
Wake up folks. If you buy into a belief system without questioning the facts, then you belong to a cult yourself and your mind is being manipulated. In this case, it is a cult of paranoia, anger and grief. @VSS, @TheDoctor, @Anonymous and whomever else is behind this website are manipulating your negative experiences, your fears and your frustrations for their own selfish motives (i.e. revenge) without giving you an opportunity to form your own opinions.
If it were true that SK is harmful, as they claim, then it makes no sense for them to include a link where you can download and use it without any instruction at all. It would be like handing a loaded gun to a child and saying “see how dangerous this is?”. Instead, they are simply trying to hurt AOLF by divulging its trade secrets.
Except you have done NOTHING to question any of the facts here. All you’ve done is throw a little mud around, try to annoy people, write some BS about SK not needing grace but working by massaging the hypothalamus – for which there is ZERO scientific evidence, and then accuse us of being a cult!! You’re quite entertaining my friend, but I’m afraid you aren’t very good at hiding your BS, especially when you’ve tried posting the same crap under different pseudonyms. Good luck trying to establish any credibility on this blog. I’ll leave it up to the readers here to decide for themselves.
@ JuJu [June 9, 2012 12:59 pm]
“Wake up folks. If you buy into a belief system without questioning the facts, then you belong to a cult yourself and your mind is being manipulated. In this case, it is a cult of paranoia, anger and grief.”
Do you really mean this ?
If you do, then this is precisely why this blog exists — the extent of brainwashing is so profound in AoL that the world outside AoL starts seeming like this to AoL members.
I associate the words “cult”, “mind manipulation”, “paranoia”, “anger”, and “grief” with AoL. You associate these words with this blog.
Where is the disagreement? There is no disagreement.
@ anyone who is reading
Please notice that there is a very clear distinction between what AoL stands for and what this blog stands for.
Let’s say AoL represents “A” and this blog represents “Z”.
My perception is that “A” is a cult. The reason why I would actively discourage anyone from joining AoL or the reason why I would actively encourage anyone who is in AoL to leave AoL is because of my perception that AoL is a cult.
Now, if, in your perception, this blog is a cult, then I actively discourage you from posting on it and reading posts on it.
In my humble opinion, we should be true to our perception — else we cannot claim that we are taking a principled stand that is non-judgmental and free from biases and prejudices.
Now, who from AoL will be the first to take a principled stand about AoL and clearly say that “if, in your perception, AoL is a cult, then please don’t join AoL, and, if you have, please leave it” ?
Let’s see if there is any AoL member reading this blog who is ready to take a principled stand against anything that any human being may perceive as a cult.
Let’s see if there is any member of AoL who is reading this blog and actually respects human beings and is humane enough to take a principled stand.
Well, let’s see. @anyone who is reading – “This blog is a cult based on anger, frustration, hurt feelings and ultimately, revenge. Please don’t take these claims to heart because there is very little fact behind them. If you do have doubts, then do your own research. Make up your own mind.”
@ anyone who is reading
So far, no one from AoL who is reading has enough respect for human beings and their human rights to take a principled stand.
Does that surprise you?
It doesn’t surprise me in the least.
I’ll be truly happy the day AoL and its members take a principled stand on something. But I doubt it. If they haven’t in over 30 years, it’s unlikely that something will change.
Still, I continue to be pro reforms in AoL for all the spectacular people who are in it and toiling away to bring it glory because I know that unlike most members of AoL who post on this blog, there are some truly well-meaning people in AoL. As I’ve said earlier, the most spectacular person I’ve met in my life is one of them.
U are right…either pro AOL…brainwashed…or in dissociated state of mind…
Just because I have given thought to both the sides, it’s being labeled as dissociative state of mind…It’s funny..This supposed anti AOL blog considers extreme opinions of a person who has never done even a single course with AOL, who does not know what SK is …That is funnier……..
Anonymous, just because u didn’t have any true experiences with SK, that doesn’t mean people who have had them are insane…
@ sadhana [June 11, 2012 4:13 am]
You are anti AoL.
You proved to the readers of this blog that AoL deceives people to make them enroll for courses. You listed all the lies that AoL utters — you talked at length about how relevant information is not shared with people at any stage.
You are an anti-humanity human being.
Your biggest complaint is that after reading the harmful effects of SK, I didn’t try SK. Your other complaint is that after reading the harmful effects of AoL courses, I didn’t enroll for them.
Will you try cocaine after reading the harmful effects of cocaine ?
Gimme a break, dudette.
Yes, I believed those who have suffered and I took a principled stand for them. That’s because I experience compassion.
Do you?
Of course not.
You experience the urge to deceive. You experience arrogance. You experience rage.
If AoL doesn’t stand for DECEPTION, ARROGANCE, and RAGE, then why are these behavioural attributes apparent in your posts ?
Aren’t you a devoted devotee ?
And, what are you devoted to — a person — or the cause of humanity ?
From all your posts, all that comes through is a devotion to a human being that makes you justify deception, arrogance, and rage, against all other human beings.
Do you really think Mr. Ravi Shankar is making you a better human being?
Of course not.
Read all your posts. The evidence is there in your own words.
Mr. Ravi Shankar is tapping into your negativity and cynicism. Those are the traits he is validating in you. He is directing those traits towards defending his even more negative and cynical actions.
You have forgotten the core tenet of life — anything that makes one forget one’s humanity is harmful — whether or not it is someone who claims to be spiritual. True spirituality does not lie in lies and deception. True spirituality has to start with the truth.
@sadhana, in case you misread my post, or it was unclear — I was responding to JuJu’s taunt that I was distressed from poor treatment from senior teachers. I had no direct experience with being mistreated by senior teachers. I did do SK, knew Ravi Shankar very personally, and disliked the whole thing. There were many others that I observed being harmed by some of the senior teachers. That was my point.
“But then what about all the “grace” that we’ve been told so much about?”
What about it? What do you mean by grace?
When you were asked to come up with a working definition of grace you chickened out and now you put your tail up. Shame on you.
Anonymous, point noted..
“Good luck trying to establish any credibility on this blog”
This is such a joke! Joke of the year i think! Do you think people want to establish credibility on this blog? anonymous credibility for anonymous people…what lala land you live in?
Maybe Harshal and JuJu should start their own blog and name it “Beyond the Beyond the Art of Living Blog” and start posting, along with Dr. Peter, and others who are so upset with people here posting their true experiences. Why are any of you even bothering with this blog? Clearly Harshal’s claim that it’s his ‘entertainment’ has been busted by his own outbursts. JuJu seems to just want to disagree with everyone who is saying “this happened to me” with his “Prove It” garbage. And Dr. Peter, mr. golden talk, wants everyone to just get along, just as long as they say “rah rah Art of Living!!” along with him, of course. If none of you are art of living shills, then why are you bothering, some of you for years together, posting here? I post here because I truly believe that Art of Living harms people. It harmed many I knew. I don’t go to the pro AOL blogs and post anything negative. Why are you guys here? Are you really upset by this blog? If you truly believe that your Guruji is master of the universe, why are you not just contemplating him and sitting at his feet? What’s the point of arguing with people who clearly don’t like him or his techniques or his guru business? Are you all just argumentative? It’s kinda strange. You are either having doubts yourselves, or you are in his employ, imo. Otherwise you’d go in for some small medium and large circles, and chill.
@ Anonymous [June 11, 2012 1:18 am]
Brilliantly said. I agree with your perspective. They should seriously chill instead of getting bothered by mere words on a mere blog. What is the big deal? So what if someone said something based on their true experiences. People have a right by law and by virtue of being human beings. Why create such a drama about it? Why can’t they just ignore any disagreement?
If I was in AoL, I would believe that everyone posting here is suffering from bi polar depression. I would not doubt the intelligence of my Guru if I truly believed in him. I would accept his version and go by it. Then, each day, I’d pray that those who post here are cured and wish them well. In addition, I would start at least ten new blogs to document the “success” stories of AoL and make Dr. Peter the moderator of those blogs. I would encourage him to actively post stories of Guru Grace each day. And, I would encourage Sadhana and Uttam to comment on those stories and involve more and more people in sharing stories. I would appoint Juju / Wilson as the scientific expert on SK and encourage him / her to post scientific insights frequently. That, to my mind, would be a constructive response to this blog. If I truly believed in AoL and all that it perpetuates, that is what I’d do.
I wouldn’t run around the internet with a gada to thrash anyone who expresses pain and anguish about a genuinely painful AoL experience. This is such atrocious behaviour — thrashing people verbally — all because they said their AoL experience was excruciating. I would have thought the representative of a spiritual and humanitarian organization will express compassion. Forget compassion, they’re indulging in slighting people.
Which school of thought justifies slighting people in the name of humanitarianism and spirituality? Which school of thought says that one can go around humiliating and abusing people — attributing all sorts of non-existent motives to them — questioning their sanity — just because people expressed genuine pain and anguish?
If I was in AoL, I would think that people think AoL caused them pain and just let them be — so that they could recover and heal. I wouldn’t bully them because of something they think or perceive. Every human being has human rights. Every human being deserves humane treatment. If all it takes for them to drop their humanity is one criticism of AoL, then how flimsy and fragile is their belief in humanitarianism?
This kind of flimsy and fragile faith in humanitarianism and compassion cannot lead to personal peace or world peace.
Now they’ll get enraged and say they are peaceful as if rage is the symptom of peace.
I wonder what Mr. Ravi Shankar does to change the definition of peace, of sanity, of spirituality, of humanitarianism, of compassion etc. etc. in people. They begin to claim all of this and their behaviour is the exact opposite of what they claim.
Then, they say prove what is wrong with Mr. Ravi Shankar and AoL — without realizing they personify the very proof that they seek.